Factors that contributed to the debacle off Savo Island.

The Japanese got thier inspiration from a British attempt to create an oxygen torpedo. The British gave up on it but it's not clear that the Japanese knew that. See:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTJAP_Notes.htm

So apparently the first work on it was indeed Japanese but they gave up on it until they thought the British had succeeded. ...

 

I've also come to question the belief that our victory at Midway was just sheer luck, cracking JN-25 was the result of skilled code-breaking on our part, nothing "lucky" there imo, and RLeonard gives some pretty convincing commentary that our dive-bombers didn't just happen to "chance-upon" the Japanese fleet:

http://www.ww2f.com/topic/39943-battle-of-midway-us-torpedo-and-dive-bomber-attacks/

Now that's not to say that luck didn't play a part, but luck has also contributed to countless other won/lost battles, so why do people make a big deal out of it with Midway?

 

Have you read Shattered Sword? If not you should. Their thesis was that an overly complex IJN plan played a significant role as well as the factors you mention. Luck played a part but not to the extent that some seam to think certainly not enough to justify calling it a miracle.

 

No I admit, I haven't read either Shattered Sword nor the First Team books, haven't really done much reading in general lately, been a little too hooked to War in The Pacific Admirals Edition for awhile now.

 

Have to be good, in order to be lucky. ..Just like cards.

 

I agree Poppy, and it's a fact that the US Navy and its pilots were more capable than than what people(btw, none of this is directed against you,Triton) give them credit for, and in my opinion when they dismiss their achievement at Midway as pure luck, they are doing nothing but disrespecting those brave men who gave it their all to win that battle!

 

The only "luck" in battle is "bad luck." Your "lucky break", is your opponent's "screw up", and you can only hope that your opponent screws up more than you do. For, in battle, all it takes is one screw up...

 

No, you don't have to be good, in order to be lucky...You just have to play against an opponent who is worse than you...Just like in cards.

 

Records show the Japanese were better performers at night?
Practice makes perfect.
Maybe it was the round eye inferior eye sight.

 

I would think the sailors of Hiei and Kirishima needed more practice then.

 

One of the things I really liked about Shattered Sword was the background information. They spent a couple of chapters on the IJN high command how it worked (or didn't), politics, and decision making. So it's not just about the battle of Midway. I'm still working on the First Team books.

About being good required for luck. I remember a game of micro armor I was playing, now it was a game but I could easily see the same thing happening in real life. I was playing the NATO commander and saw a bunch of Soviet APC's pull up to the edge of the woods and stop so I called for an arty strike. By the time it arrived they had left and their infantry had moved a considerable distance into the woods. Worked out well becuase the arty was off a considerable distance as well and came down right on top of the dismounted infantry. No way I can claim any sort of skill on my part produced that result. I've read of plenty of real cases as well. One of the real classics was the IJN torpedoing the IJA transports. That was quite a piece of luck for the allies but I can't see anyway the quality of their actions in the battle can be claimed to have made that piece of luck.

 

I've heard good things about it, I am interested in getting the book, I'm currently reading a book about American history, and once I'm done, I'll get right to the Pacific war.

Well said lwd, in my reply to Poppy I did genuinly agree with him, but I was also just kinda venting my frustration about people always claiming that the US's victory at Midway was all luck.

 

I would say that pretty much sums up what happened at Savo Island, the Japanese got a "lucky break" thanks to our shortcomings in in that battle.

 

The Japanese had many "lucky breaks" at Savo Island. However, one of the few Japanese screw ups cost them the heavy cruiser Kako.

 

Quite ironic for Kako, she survives the carnage off Savo only to be sunk by one of our submarines the next day, a little payback at least.

 

Well said Carronade.

 

Admiral Norman Scott was present when Savo island occurred, though never took part in the battle, being in command of Task Group 62.4(Eastern Force), if only he had been in command, maybe he could've made a difference.

 

The demise of ABDA should have shown the IJN was far from incompetent, and IIRC that campaign included multiple night combats, the IJN was did not have material superiority in many of the ADBA battles, though it could rely on reinforcements while Doorman's force couldn't and was ultimately destroyed piecemeal. BTW the the bulk of Mikawa's force (4 out of 5) at Savo was made up of the oldest group of Japanese 8" cruisers that were smaller and, on paper, markedly inferior to allied ones, it could have gone very differently given the allied firepower advantage, what made the difference was training and allied mistakes, IMHO "luck" makes a big difference in naval combat since the first big guns made single hits decisive., the numbers involved are often way too small for luck to even out.

 

Light cruisers Tenryu and Yubari and destroter Yunagi were also among the smallest and oldest of their types in the IJN, or for that matter the world. The only really first-rate ship was flagship Chokai. I've always suspected, but never seen it stated specifically, that the Takao class with their massive superstructures and mulitple bridges were intended to serve as fleet flagships, which would explain why Chokai was there instead of forming a squadron with her sisters as the IJN usually did.

While the naval treaties precluded new capital ship construction, several navies put expanded flag accommodations into heavy cruisers as the only way of getting modern flagships. Examples includes USS Augusta, Chicago, Houston, and Indianapolis and the Italian Pola.

 

Does anyone know how many of the IJN ships had Type 93 "long lance" torpedoes at Savo ? Yunagi and Tenryu for sure didn't as they had 21" tubes.

Chokai should have as they were issued to the larger heavy cruiser classes before the Pacific war, Not sure about the others, Yubari should have type 93 but had just four tubes (with reloads) compared to Chokai's impressive 16, IIRC the two older classes were last in line for receiving the type 93 but should have by 1942.

IIRC Yubari at Coral Sea was the flagship of the Rabaul attack force, that was more complex than Mikawa's force and also included the larger Kako and Furutaka as support, As all Japanese light cruisers she was designed to act as leader of a DD flotilla, so the inclusion of Chokai just to have a flagship looks strange and is a bit of an oddity in IJN force composition. The IJN usually tended to operate heavy cruisers in homogenous squadrons and light cruisers as destroyer leaders.