GB EU Refferendum June 2016 - Should the GB stay or exit the European Union? BRexit

I was trying to look at how our European neighbours might see us.

For someone keen to demonstrate that you don't "hate" Europe and Europeans your post included a number of assertions preceded with the phrase "its a fact that"

Starting with "what people 'hate' is massive unchecked immigration - both legal and illegal - and the effects on our communities,"

Some of this the a streak of xenophobia that not too far from the surface from the English character. Hating foreigners has been at traditional dimension to what used to be described as "the mob." Concerns about immigration have been stoked by racists and nationalist political extremists alike.

Britain is supposed to famously value fair play, but here is the worlds most successful migrants claiming that their country is a special case too full and culturally precious to accwept the C21st global world. What crap. If there aren't enough houses, infrastructure or public services ist because we prefer high house prices and have voted for a government that doesn't invest in public services. Our public services depend on migrants because we have under invested in education and our aging population needs young people to pay taxes and look after them in their old age.

The idea that "Controlled Immigration" works is an even bigger pile of poo. We have a free market economy. We don't think the government should run the economy, but somehow the public has swallowed the idea Border Agency can know what sort of foreigners we need. A points sysetm might workl for a growing country like Australia, but Britain is an aging country and someo of the [people in highest demand are those willing to work long hours for l;ow money in our care and service sectors. Just a smokescreen to cover xenophobia.

It is NOT a"fact that our lives are effectively governed by 'un-elected tin-pot figures' like Junker and Schulz, the EU commission - the body that proposes and implements laws that national governments can do nothing about" The Commission are the servants of the council of Ministers, and appointed by them. No EU policy can be adopted without the agreement of the council, and legislation is under further scrutiny of the European [parliament.

it is NOT a fact that" 'Europe' wants to create its own Army and extend its influence for no reason other than the 'pursuit of power' and probably a myriad other reasons that are all rather 'un-British'". There are no plans for a European Army. There were, back in the 1950s. There are very real reasons for European states to co-operate on defence and security. #1 the US periodically call for European leg of NATO to do more. #2 crisis on Europes borders such as the break up of Yugoslavla, Libya ,Syria and External threats are pressures to share resources and information form collective security.

It may be much more British to charge into action; but has British intervention in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya strengthened or under-mined security? Furthermore it is a bit rich for the British to then try to duck out of sharing the burden of housing the millions of refugees that have resulted from our own policies.

 

How many are genuine refugees, and how many just chancers trying their luck though?
"Even EU officials are now finally admitting that a lot – or, rather, most – of the people we have been calling ‘refugees’ are not refugees. They are economic migrants with no more right to be called European citizens than anybody else in the world."
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/heres-a-fine-example-of-the-trouble-our-continent-is-descending-into/

 

well apparently its a fact that there are around a million Poles now living (and some of them presumably ) working in the UK.

stating that we do not like this particular of affairs is hardly 'racist' since migrants from Eastern Europe are (mostly) as white as I am! And who are you to say that it is 'wrong' to dislike this state of affairs?

As to your other 'facts, I won't comment, because from your statements I can see that quite simply you haven't done enough/any reading on the subject. Watch the debates in the European parliament on the subject of a 'european' Army which you can find on youtube. Edifying.

 

De Gaulle was suspicous considering the UK's allegiance was more orientated towards the US than Europe those days. He feared the adhession of the UK would not be 100% and Brexit seems to show he was right. Of course I'll agree his position was biased by the Nato affair and the US Polaris missile sales to the UK, but one can't deny his fears had grounds. The funny thing is that de Gaulle's position vs the US those days ( he wanted his country back and not depend on any others ) is exactly the one held by Brexit supporters (Give us our country back) vs the EU.

 

Couldn't agree more, but one shouldn't blame this political correctness on the EU alone . Many so called "migrants" are economic luck seekers , but being in or out of the EU won't stop the tide I'm afraid , see Switserland for example. I fear that being out of Europe will be desillusion regarding immigration. Some "unwanted" mmigrants will just arrive illegally and find other ways to stay (like fake weddings) .

 

It's usually like this. In the eighties at the height of communist prosecutions in Poland most of the Polish refuges still did it for economic, not political reasons. The Americans, NATO knew this I suppose but didn't care. The propaganda value of that emigration was much more important to them.

 

Absolutely agree about the immigration point, Skip.

 

The U.K. has a slight advantage of being an island...more money on border control, strict deportation laws, and processing in non- UK territory could/should be looked at as a measure IMO

 

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/q88/s526x395/13533263_1763473537197612_1286477765052782347_n.jpg?oh=67d26a6d68697ac9e8ac3e2773dcfaf7&oe=57F84C4F

Yes, I did it.

 

UK politicians are a bit embarrassed after admitting they had not expected the Brexit outcome and that there is no real plan. The Norwegian option is regarded as a fair alternative, except that many have apparently not read the treaties with Norway, which more or less state that commercial advantages were granted providing Norway accepted free circulation of EU inhabitants ( so including immigrants.....) on its territory.

In other words if the UK wants to keeps some of their advantages, the Brexit politicans would have to give up ther border control and lie to their voters.....

 

I have never heard of a single European that "hates" Britain, especially for leaving the EU. Quite the contrary; for Europeans, Brittons are great chaps indeed. However, that German military analyst is very likely right: Britain created conditions for the flood of refugees from the middle east and is leaving us with the refugees which will remain European problem. We shall handle that too. Involvement of Britain in "catalysis" you mention is much broader and deeper and it has it's long "British tradition". To avoid off-topic branching of this conversation, I will open a new theme about continuation of The Great Game in the second part of 20th century, with ephasis on the present day refugee chrisis in the EU.

 

That's the bit that gets me too, Skip. The SNP have been banging on for years about how we should be more like Norway, which isn't an EU member, but now they're fixated on staying in the EU.
I wish they'd make their minds up.

 

Not to mention that both Scotland and Norway relay on petrol. But what will happen when that resource ends?

 

Norway has been saving the money generated from the oil into an oil fund that amounts to roughly 800 Billion USD. A year ago, the fund itself made more money in a three month period than the government spent in the same period.

Norway’s GDP is around the $500 billion mark. So the oil fund is 1½ times the entire annual output of the whole country (and that's including the oil industry). And that of course is why there is an oil fund at all. Because if that money had been flowing into the domestic economy over the decades the Norwegian currency would now by sky high and it’s doubtful if there would be any other economic activity in the country at all, other than oil and gas. That’s the whole point of the fund, to stop that happening: that is, to stop the oil money being spent in the Norwegian domestic economy.

Last year and this year, they have spent some of the money in the oil fund.

But I'm not too concerned for the Norwegian's yet.

 

Pretty much what they call the "Dutch Disease"-
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/11/economist-explains-2

 

A huge pro EU march in London :


Brexit protest: Tens of thousands march through London to demand Britain remains in EU

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-protest-march-30000-anti-saturday-2-july-anger-banners-leave-vote-central-a7115646.html

 

Waste of a good walk.

 

They will certainly give an extra scare to their favourite politians and add to the confusion though.

 

My daughter said it was well worth attending and a lot of fun.

Just because there was a narrow minority in favour of leaving the UK does not make the feelings ofjust under half of the population go away. Even with a first past the post system there has to be an accommodation wuith the majority who almost certainly don't want the extremist Europhobe vision of the future.

 

Narrow minority sod all. Leave won by 52% to 48% in a NATIONAL vote which also had the highest turnout since the 1992 general election-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887
Can any of you mathematical geniuses tell me which is bigger- 52% or 48%?
This is like the independence referendum all over again; political illiterates throwing tantrums because they didn't get their own way. Are we going have this BS every time one side doesn't win a vote of some kind? It's clearly just a 21st Century phenomenon in Britain, courtesy of Generation Snowflake-
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/generation-snowflake-how-we-train-our-kids-to-be-censorious-cry-babies/
Twenty years ago when my eldest daughter was starting school, we got a list of do's and don'ts, which included not teaching your kid to read before they start (not fair on kids with parents who can't be arsed buying them books or reading to them, apparently). Can't have kids being more clever than their classmates, somebody's feelings might get hurt. Then she came home singing "Baa baa rainbow sheep", 'cos the original's "racist" apparently, so we promptly changed her to a school that wasn't run by a bunch of headcases.