German TV drama confronts a nation's wartime guilt

You're quite right. Therefore I was so silent over the past week: I have left the last part to watch after the hollidays, not to spoil the atmosphere of the family event. Then came the surprise, like a bomb shell. As you might know, my family went through the war within the Reich, just my father has escaped into forrest to fight. Therefore I have some direct insight into the minds and secrets of the Nazi State. They all knew where the Jews are beilg rellocated. They all knew what would happen to the Russians and to the Poles. Liquidation. They all knew, I mean ordinary citizens knew.

Aditional info: For those who don't know much about Germany: the film is produced by the ZDF which is something like BBC2 in the UK: ZDF (The Second German Television) is a public-service German television broadcaster. It is should be an independent non-profit institution, which was founded by the German federal states. ZDF is financed by television licence fees and advertising revenues. It is the voice of people, so to speak.

 

Unfortunately I cannot really give an overall impression of episode 3 and so the whole series until I have an English version...But I'm off now to watch the unsubtitled you tube of ep 3 which should give me some more understanding.

 

No you are right....I am not forgetting any of this or who did what and who was responsible for it. No one can understand what the families of those that suffered not those that inflicted the suffering went through...The victims are the important voice here...If this drama is intended to belittle the victims or lay the blame elsewhere then belittles the makers more. There are too many of us that will not let what happened be ever forgotten and will lay the blame fairly and squarely at the perpertrators door.

History is not accidental....I understand anyone who is concerned that the story of any history is not represented wholly and fully with no ambiviance as to who did what to whom...Thats why we have Japan presently in my own dock as to their new govt wanting to present history...a history that many of their own folk don't even know of never mind acknowledge...Japan would revisit ww2 and is attempting to...IF WE LET THEM....This German drama and I'll stick to my guns here...this drama in first 2 episodes does not attempt to change anything...But I'll be a tad concerned and upset if we have been lead into a war and social drama that is although not without its hattred moments...If this drama in episode 3 attempts to use the first 2 to lull us into a revisonist program of any type..It is not the job of a national broadcaster to change history to reflect today's attitudes...bias yes...we all have our bias and national broadcasters can and do introduce national bias...but changing things..and implying things without proof but more to alter guilt is a no no...

Historians thread here reminds us who the guilty party was, is and ever shall be...That said...Today's German is not responsible...His parents and grand parents may be..are..were...Telling a story to make today's German feel better about his family of yesteryear is not the way to go...And I hope episode 3 does not do this..

http://www.ww2f.com/topic/49171-16-photographs-at-ohrdruf/

Lest We Forget...

 

I'm following this thread closely, though I have had little to add since I have not seen the series. My understanding is taken from your comments and the whole narrative seems to have taken a darker turn in episode three. Yet, here too (if I understand correctly), they are pointing out that the guilt was shared to some extent by other eastern European nations and people. That may be unpalatable to some, but it's true.

Much of this is inexplicable to Americans. It's not that we don't have our own history of bigotry because we certainly do, but our sense of nationalism is separate from our sense of race or ethnicity. They are two different things to us because we're a nation of immigrants. It's hard for us to grasp that European nationalism can also embrace racial or ethnic divisions - that suddenly a Jew is no longer a German, a Pole or a Ukrainian. There is a pattern of this dating far back in European history. It didn't start in WWII.

Of course the Germans, or more specifically the Nazi's, kicked off and orchestrated this last and worst pogrom. And as you say - they need to accept responsibility. With that said, the modern German should have no guilt, but he should have the truth. If this series is hiding the truth, I hope that is being pointed out by many in the country.

 

No itr did not start in world war 2...The period of the 3 Edwards and Henry before them is a rather dark part of English history where the Jews are concerned...And not one I would be proud of. But no one is making us Brits...even though I'd have been Irish stock then...for that period of our history. I certainly and don't think any Englishman today, feels guilty over it. i suppose living memory plays a large part in it.

 

urqh and Kodiak, thanks for great posts.
Somehow, I start to conceive what this all means. The present day German generation doesn't want to have the Nazi past; they want something better. Correct me if I'm wrong but Germans reject the Nazis as their predecessors. This is worse than the death sentence. Just imagine your children reject you as a parent. Is there any other failure worse than to be renounced by the own blood?

 

Don't forget, Ludwig Beck might have gotten rid of Hitler in 38 if Chamberlain's government would have taken his messengers seriously and threatened war over the Czechs, yet another "way out" that of course wasn't used.

 

Probably for another thread Tote...but my own personal view on Beck at that stage was he could not garner the support of the rest of the army, or at least those that mattered or he would have. Allied intelligence, would have known this even if there were failing at this time in all areas. Britain for one, Chamberlain was going down a path, rightly or wrongly that he believed in...he believed in what he was doing...The risk of getting caught conspiring with anyone against the legitimate ruler of Germany while he was in dealings and machinations with Hitlers regime would have ended his path. He would not risk all his work and dreams on something that Beck could not get from the German officer corps or people anyway...Chamberlain was not willing to gamble the path he was on on the thought that Beck or anyone may just may be able to remove Hitler. When quite obviously he could not or would have.

 

With respect, is this argument not another deflection of responsibility away from the German nation?

Certainly it may be true, but interfering with the political development of a nation, however noble its intent, is an act of war. More to the point at this juncture it would have been seen as such by the German nation. Even if successful it would have made Hitler and the Nazi Party martyrs in the eyes of these people.

 

Now, I have found out why the "Poles" in the movie speak with so thick accent: they are simply not the Poles; two among them have just polish ancestry: Lucas Gregorowicz is British and Adam Markiewicz is German resident. Scenes from "Poland" were shot in Lithuania. It is not strange to me that they have avoided direct contact with Poles and Poland. They know why.

Basically, the film departs from the good old "we didn't know." Now, they decided to say "yes, we all knew, but the others did that too." The film attempts to relativize crimes and to push the guilt on the victims shoulders. I don't see anything noble here. Ordinary crooks want to fool honest people.

The target population for this film is obviously Germany and perhaps some western countries. I don't know how could they otherwise convince the Russians that the Nazis/Germans just wanted to overthrow Communists and tell the Poles that the Nazis/Germans were killing exclusively partizans. They murdered children, they murdered women, they murdered unarmed civilians, they simply murdered anything that could be murdered. They starved people to death, they let people die at open from freezing. Again they are trying to fool us.

 

I understand your difficulties. The best way for Americans to understand the controversy of this film is to imagine a film showing Osama bin Laden as an innocent sheppard who was dragged into 9/11 by the CIA.

PS: and assume that every fifth American citizen has perished on 9/11.

 

The way I used "of course" was more meant to express a throwing up of arms in a "go figure we didn't use it" sort of way, with the gift of hindsight the passing over of such chances seems insane. (Also, I in no way intend it as a responsibility shifter. I have maintained for several years that many nations threw in the sod, flint and straw, but Hitler lit the tinderbox)

I'm not too sure about the issue of martyring the Nazi party, if men like Beck and his high ranking comerades were involved, he might have been able to sway the populace that Hitler would have lead them to destruction, not to mention that the Wehrmacht generals were all fairly big names in the public sphere, the army was directly involved in politics and the public throughout Germania's long history.

Part of my understanding is that Beck and the plotters needed GB and France to commit to war, and Hitler to mindlessly charge into it, so he could present his case after he arrested Hitler as a "See where this man would have lead us?" appeal. After having went through 2 decades of humiliation and poverty, I think he had a chance to convince them that they wouldn't even want to go there a second time.

 

As to your first point, it would have been great had they gotten people who could speak flawless Polish, but lets be realistic, a lot of things go into casting a part and there is no conspiracy to that.

Point two, the departure from the "we didn't know" to 'we did know, but did nothing to stop it" is fair leap from previous positions held.

As to the last point, its both true and false. Many thought they were working to bring down Communism. From what I got from the book Frontsoldatten, Many German soldiers bought the Crusade against the Red Menace line and in doing so the further lie that "any and all means" were acceptable and necessary to achieve it.

I am not defending the argument, because in American military justice you can not follow any order that is illegal, but Germany had a different outlook.

 

Tamino is on a roll....We've gone from drama critique to something worthwhile in this thread....I must say I do agree with your other post too....Maybe I'm too willing at times to be entertained...But there is a deep argument here....It needs bringing out. Tamino is doing so. More power to your elbow mate.

 

Many thought they were working to bring down Communism. From what I got from the book Frontsoldatten, Many German soldiers bought the Crusade against the Red Menace line and in doing so the further lie that "any and all means" were acceptable and necessary to achieve it.









Many thought they were working to bring freedom. ......Many American and British soldiers bought the crusade against the Muslim Menace and and in doing so the further lie that any and all means were acceptable and necessary to achieve it...



Apologies Belasar you know what I am getting at. What will the future forum some where say about us.

 

@belasar:

I understand your view but:

The unprecended proportion of a crime invalidates any explanation whatsoever. That unholly crucade was a German crucade.
Why shouldn't they try to quietly show some respect to the victims of their predecessors.

 

It isn't the controversy over the film that I find inexplicable. It is the linkage of nationalism and ethnic identity that is alien to me.

 

Ah, I see what you do really mean. That is Central European heritage. A bitter one.

You Americans have more luck regarding ethnic/racial relationships.

 

We've had our own racial and ethnic strife. Plenty of it. But it's the linkage of nationalism and ethnicity that has made so much of European history ugly. If you go back you see every generation or two a pogrom unleashed somewhere - people who thought themselves Spanish or Polish or German are suddenly not. Their property is seized and they are expelled or murdered.

That's what happened in Germany in the 30's and then across Europe as German control spread. People who had been Germans (or Poles or Dutch) for generations were suddenly illegal aliens - then not people at all. It's an old story.

 

Is it correct to justify a murder just on the basis of political/ideological differences? Or, let me put this other way: is it acceptable to annihilate a population of another country just because they have wrong government? The Jews were decimated just because of different religious belief. Think.

PS: And don't let Göebbels full you; he invented the "struggle against the Red Plague". Just think about Russians as the people who lived in a state with different government. Forget ideology; we are talking about the human aspect of a crime.