German TV drama confronts a nation's wartime guilt

Indeed, we are departing from the subject of this tread. I am taking all responsibility for that.

There are rumors that even Polish embassy in Berlin protested. Is this just about art or the art is in fact "applied art"? Is it possible to separate such things sharply, like individual components of a mixture in a distillation tower?

EDIT: Yet, I must add: Belasar's "partizans" look fake, like taken from a Nazi handbook for hunting partizans.

 

I think....my view has changed over the course of this thread...I treated it as a drama...without really thinking that folk were still around today who's family and friends were subjected to horrors and fears in living memory. I'm not talking for Belasar...he has a big enough gob...in the nicest way of course...to speak for himself...but we two seem to be on the page of this is just a drama...and unfortunately...it cannot be just a drama...even though knowing it was made to alleviate the German view if they had or have one of guilt...This then collides with how a drama can be perceived to show history when it is not history in the sense we on here understand...and although we on our little forum can see it for what it is...I do understand that not everyone will see it as a drama...

I will decline from commenting on the Polish embassy...as they have been known to utter things even to do with British roles or Polish roles and monuments etc in the UK...which in itself offers a guilt laden emotional blackmail at times that I do not agree with either.

 

In my view, the central question here is how far poetic licence may be stretched.

Is poetic licence entirely at the artist's discretion? How far artist may go before the poetic freedom comes in collision with peoples feelings? It is also irresponsible to manipulate sensitive historic facts because average people in general do not know the truth and they may substutute fiction for reality. It is to admit that the film doesn't deal with something of minor importance after all. The authors should be aware of risks.

EDIT: urqh, you're right again. How naive I was but I slowly realize why Americans dislike (euphemism) partizans: Vietnam, Afghanistan, Nairobi... They prefer counterparts nicely grouped and as close as possible to each other, marked with a single distinctive color. They like pushing buttons! But why when hide-and-seek is much more exciting. On topic now.

 

Slipdigit makes a good point. The United States was founded by "partisans." It may make a good painting to show Washington's army dressed in neat blue uniforms, but the truth is most of them were dressed in civilian clothes - if they had a blue coat they'd wear that. Certainly, all of the militia units were nothing more than partisans. They went home when it was time to plant or harvest, and fought when their farms were in order.

There is a difference between a partisan and a terrorist.

A partisan shoots at soldiers, or perhaps police and government figures.

A terrorist kills civilians.

I think we can all recognize the difference. Or should be able to...

 

exactly kb...there is a difference..but officialdom and their media lackies present them as they see fit..insurgents in their own country for example.

 

I've watched the 3rd part again because I felt I was too excited last time by these horrible scenes. I had to. I know now: the film is ordinary moaning: "Our grandparents were dearly beaten by the Russians".

But, of course they were, they've deserved to be beaten even harder, but Stalin wanted to save some native citizens for his new puppet state - DDR. That's what happened. Has anyone told them the truth?

And now, they are making a three part film just to tell us that their grandparents were utterly beaten. Is there anything new?
Friends, we were squandering our time with that film. But it was pleasure talking to you guys, especially to read Kodiaks and urqh comments. That was inspiring and great pleasure mates.

By the way, urqh, your nick is so difficult to spell; I have to re-read it so many times.
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DISCLAIMER: I am not talking about the actual German grandparents but about these fictive, from the film.

 

It was supposed to be Urquhart as in Arnhem fame...but when I originally put it up I realised too late I'd cut it up on posting..So just left it...Keeps folk guessing as to what it means...nothing to guess...just my bad posting..

It was worth discussing...I'm sure we will again on similar threads...they seem to keep popping up....Lets face it...Most of us know who the goodies and baddies were...Simplification I know...But there you are...I admire your and KB and Belasars determination to make sure folk know who the perperatrators were. But as Belasar says...black and white...makes grey...If like you there is personal involvement then we must understand that when we read and comment.

If anyone derided Irish folk for leaving Ireland and helping in ww2 then I too would be at the forefromt of any argument.

I do think Old Belasar got the brunt of it though. Thankless task trying to be impartial...Grey exists...but I know and all know, Belasar as well as being a good mod, also knows black from white.

 

I am afraid I suffer from Daltonism: I'm trying so hard to see some shades of gray, unfortunately: i receive just Black & White signals from outside. But, that's something too, better than to be totally blind for reality.

 

Currently watching an old episode of Island at war on the UK yesterday channel...And have to say...for its age...the BBC apportion guilt and history in its own unique way. And maybe if the German ZDF channel were to have made this then present day Germans would have something to debate. Far stronger in its moral tone than the one we discuss and only a soap type historical drama.

Edit....actually Granada production not BBC.

 

While respecting everyone's opinions I personally thought the series was exceptional. I doubt somehow it will make it into English. This might be of interest although in German - an 80-min ZDF documentary about the drama series, using the vet interviews that obviously inspired the story line, lots of colour footage and interspersed with clips from "Unsere Mutter....".

the programme examines briefly whether Barbarossa was an attempt to pre-empt a Russian attack and concludes that the Soviets were in no position to wage war on Germany. They also cover Wehrmacht crimes (Babi Yar etc..), conclusion, of the 10 million Germans eventually under arms in Russia, only 10,000 participated in crimes, although as these 10,000 all had families etc at home, most Germans knew what was going on. Discussion too about how the regular army got the 'political Komissar'(sp. ?) order rescinded, the only occasion when 'revolt' from below' over-turned directives from above. The production team also interview German deserters - there were approx 35,000 from the Wehrmacht in total, 15,000 of whom were executed - while the remainder were incorporated into Staf (or punishment) bataillonen. There is an interview with one survivor of these units. And they also dwell on Russian mistreatment in East Germany. Main 'talking head' is Dr Christian Hartman, Fachberatung (expert consultant) on the series...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqSrkHyl_1s

 

Nice post Falk...Where do the 10,000 figures come from though mate?

 

We are having now new historic data. Good!

I've seen that documentary already, but thanks Falk anyway.

This "documentary" falls too short on many accounts. I will mention just a minor one because it tells a lot about its reliability..

The documentary shows some elderly Ukrainian woman who was prepared to talk in front of their camera very favorably about Wehrmacht. Her enthusiasm was supported with Göbbels' footage. Great. But where are all those millions of Ukrainians who could contradict that? What about historic facts? Göbbels would have been delighted: they are using his materials and his techniques.

EDIT1: as I've suspected: they are now turning this "artistic film" into kosher reality.

EDIT2: Meanwhile I've calculated from that data: this means just 0.1% of all were involved. This figure translated into reality means pracitcaly nobody was involved. But, whrere the Hell murderers are?


By the way, there is a footage presenting delighted welcome ceremonies when Wehrmach came to my home-town. I know exactly how it was. Terrible:

Invasion of my home-town: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or8OvcTAqak

 

Yep, the figures need to be explained....10,000 ..Come off it.

 

10,000 !!! Obviously an attempt to minimse the numbers to minimse the guilt. I mean lets take All members of the Einsatztruppe, 1st SS Motorised, the SS Cavalry brigade, all those Police Battalions, Prinz Eugen, a lot of Totenkopf, some of Das Reich, Hitler Jugend and your at 10,000+ without even thinking.

 

The 10,000 must have been busy little folk...Not a moments rest...lots of travel time...Ridiculous.

 

A study produced by General Hoepner for Panzergruppe 4 in early May 1941, which began with
the statement that the war against Russia, was an essential part of the struggle for
existence for the German Volk against Jewish Bolshevism.
The campaign had to be led, Hoepner continued, with unheard of harshness. Soldiers had to arm
themselves with an iron pitiless will and show no mercy for the bearers of today's Russian
Bolshevist system.
Franz Halder chief of staff of the army and a member of the circle which had contemplated
a coup against Hitler in 1938, took upon himself to add the catagories Jew and Communist
to a list of those targetted during the campaign against Yugoslavia in April 1941. He
helped draw up instructions for the Barbarossa campaign a few weeks later, demanding Iron
Severity in dealing with a Civilian population deluded by the exponent of the Jewish
Bolshevik ideology. At a meeting of military judges in June, General Eugen Muller told them
that it was Hitlers intention that in the coming ivasion, legal considerations have to step
back behind the necessities of war. Von Brauchitsch was concerned only to avoid the
degeneration of troops as a result of their unrestricted licence to kill, and insisted that
repriasals and murder should be carried out on the orders of an officer

German troops were thus given immunity from prosecution in advance of any actions.
Let us not forget this is the German Army. Not a bunch of followers on.

Forster Operation Barbarossa p510 p492 to p500

H.H.Wilhelm Rasenpolitik und Kriegfuhrung sicheheitpolizie p140 Generalorberst Hoepner
2nd May 1941

E.Hesse Der Sowjetrussishe partissankrieg 1941 bis 1944

 

Unfortunately masses of ordinary Russians fully supported their murderous government, like the Germans in Germany. It was not like only the soviet regime was guilty for everything. Naturally the soviet göbbels' were filling the citizens with propaganda but still.

I would not be so sure that Göbbels invented "the struggle agains the Red Plague" but definitely he was not alone - and not totally wrong.

Don't think that the Jewish religion was of any major importance for the Nazies.

 

Saveges - sure. "The worst savages ever" - hardly. The world have seen many similar type of savages before and after them.

Naturally the soviet-minded individuals and of course the Jews want to make us all believe otherwise.

 

The worst savages ever??? I feel another thread topic coming on....But most of them will be medieval or a little later...I think where savagery if it is to be employed...It makes a difference in the education level of the power that is committing the savagery..be it the politicos...the officers...the soldier himself..or even right down to the pleb or peasant citizenry...The educational attainment of some savage people sure amazes me thru history...Some with no education and no knowledge of anything but their own family and way of earning a living..although cannot be excused...Cannot be in the same league as those that are educated to a reasonable standard and still go on to do such acts of whatever we call savagery...