German TV drama confronts a nation's wartime guilt

Good topic for examination and many good points of view shared here. I'll be ruminating over this one for awhile. I'll have to look back and see if anyone mentioned what happened to Native Americans when the treaties were broken or unjustly administered. Not saying the American situation is the same but there are similarities especially at Sand Creek, Wounded Knee, The Trail of Tears and in the Black Hills.

 

Guys, many thanks for developing such an inspiring debate.

What revisionists claim is wrong. They put the subject upside-down by stating that just a marginal number of Germans were involved in crimes and they are demanding proofs for every individual who was involved in crimes. This means we should start now from zero although it is up to them to proove alleged inocence.

They all were willing executioners in a criminal organization - Wehrmacht. By the definition they are war criminals. Therefore exceptions must be prooved. Then we will be able to separate good from bad and end up with perhaps 40 righteous.

I knew that this "artistic" junk film was just a trick to instigate an avalanche of "documentaries" all over the Germany with falcified data. Göbbels would have been proud of them.

 

By the way, there is a footage presenting delighted welcome ceremonies when Wehrmach came to my home-town. I know exactly how it was. Terrible:

Invasion of my home-town: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Or8OvcTAqak

I know we have threads on what if Sealion etc..But they are make believe...I cannot possibly understand what it must be like to have a foreign army running around my home town....And this is why and where your father fought on? A brave thing to do. I can only hope the rest of us would do the same in a seemingly hopeless situation....

 

That wasn't an easy decision at all as he said. His first and only reason in the choice of the side was to be able to shoot the aggressor. Basicly, he was a die-hard patriot. After more than a half of a year of life in forrests he decided to join partisans. Many neighbours who opted for safe choice have fallen in Wehrmacht at the Eastern front. I know about one who returned from Russia and hasn't stopped drinking untill he died. People said he was wounded at very delicate place.

It was the time of uncertainty. Interestingly, I don't know anyone from my closer family who died from anything else except the natural death. Life is not about uncertanties, it is more about the luck. And courage too - God loves courageos people.

 

Indeed! Can someone, please, explain this 10.000!

 

A very Orwellian interpretation of the concept of Justice.

 

Or Biblical....But I do see a point here...The showing of the drama by ZDF was intended to prove innocence...So maybe Tamino is not that far out in his assertions if that after all is something they are trying to do.

 

Genesis 18:16 - 18:33

Urqh: You're at least twice correct. What I've said has a legal background too.
Belasar: When have you last confessed to a priest?

EDIT 1: There is no ideological background in my previously mentioned post. Just Faith and Law.
EDIT 2: Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit. <= This isn't Spanish, it's Latin.
EDIT 3: Okay, I will translate that awkward Latin maxima into a plain English: The burden of proof always lies upon the claimant. This is one of the basics of Law.

 

Exactly what, if anything, does this have to do with this thread?

 

Have you noticed that your "Orwellian"comment has entirely missed the essence of our conversation? From that I've concluded that your knowledge about Bible and Legal issues is pretty shaky because what I've mentioned were indeed basics.

Who knows, I guess you don't bother with Law and Faith. That's what I meant. Perhaps wording was rather awkward but that's what I really meant.

And, re-read my post: meanwhile I've edited it 3 times.

 

Gebigsjaeger;
I once asked myself that same question; what would have I done if I had been born in that most horrendous of situations? The answer for me and the other 99.9% of humanity is simple; I would have been blown along like a leaf in the hurricane JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. The totalitarian states are just that-systems of absolute and total terroristic control of the individual down to the smallest of detail, and the individual either plays along or is stood against the wall and shot.
This talk of "German guilt"-or "Russian Guilt" or "Japanese Guilt"- is just so much complete and total silliness.
Now an "indictment of totalitarianism" I can accept-or a "warning to the peoples of the world not to allow such a system to take control of their lands" would be fine also.
I can't wait to see this one on HULU...
JeffinMNUSA
PS. What would you, I, or most the people on this forum be doing if we had been born in North Korea? ANS; "Marching about chanting praises to the Great Leader and cheering on the launch of the missiles." Either that or you would be feritilizer.

 

If you mean that I choose not to cut and paste scripture so that it fits my purpose over its purpose, then indeed my understanding of faith is deficient.

and,

if you mean that my understanding of Law and Justice requires that anyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty and that it is obligation of the accuser to prove guilt, and not the requirement of the accused to prove their innocence, then once again I must be sadly deluded.

 

I'd have been hung...within weeks...

 

Hehe!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zFTK2YCBzA

 

@Jeff
The word "Guilt" in the tittle of this tread is a bit misleading. I've already mentioned that before.

It is not only sillines, as you've stated, but utter insanity to talk about the "guilt" of German people. What I claim here is that the German generation of 1933-1945 may be taken as responsible for crimes of the German state during that period. I have no doubts about that. Also I would apply the term "guilt" just to ardent Nazis.

Furthermore, we must take into account the right of victims and their relatives on remembrance and mourning.

@belasar
From the point of view of history as a science, the facts are well known and documented. If some German "historians" have objections regarding validity of the presently accepted history they may feel free to produce new evidence and to prove their claims for revision of history. This hasn't happened. This films brings nothing new, just unnecessarily hurts feelings of Poles and other nations that suffered under the German aggression.

@Kodiak
Unfortunately, I am out of the "likes" for today. Please, wait until tomorrow.

 

There are a lot of people presently in North Korean camps that answer your question.

Edit...Yet North Korea’s harsh treatment of its own citizens – up to 200,000 people are believed to live under brutal conditions in prison camps – is often overlooked. The United Nations Human Rights Council is now considering a formal inquiry into possible crimes against humanity.

 

f you mean that my understanding of Law and Justice requires that anyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty


Depends Belasar, if under UK laws changed in 2000's on the presumpative right to silence...in the UK this is now a very grey area. You either talk or the jury is lead to believe you are guilty. That is the overhead now in the UK, but that is for another thread.

 

According to Tamino's post #142 all the members of the Wehrmacht, every single man, woman and child that served in the German Armed Forces during WWII was a "willing executioner'" and by default a war criminal. That's over 20 million persons. Further it was the obligation of each and every one of them to prove that they had no complicity in War Crimes.

This argument is patently absurd.

Does this mean that every single service member, of every Coalition nation, must prove that they too are completely free of any taint of illegal action because of Abu Ghraib?

The vast majority of all German service personnel were draftee's and most were not old enough to vote in the last German election held by Germany before Hitler abolished elections. They at least cannot be held responsible for his coming to power.

In Tamino's eyes they are guilty of War Crimes for simply being German. Does this not sound disturbingly familiar?

In point of fact according to the Nuremberg Tribunal, despite the fact that war crimes were committed by Wehrmacht personnel, the Wehrmacht itself was deemed not to be an inherently criminal organization.

Should we ask every German member of this forum to prove that their relations are free of any war guilt so as to be considered one of Tamino's 40 righteous German soldiers, sailors and airman not a "willing executioner" of Adolf Hitler?

We have had this argument before. It did not wash then and it will not now.

 

I would not and cannot speak for Tamino. I do though see he is in my view attempting to get folk to express theirs...Personal views though do not always sit well with history or facts. I think Gebrigs answer was sufficient on that point. His approach has brought much out of the woodwork....We are now seeing expressions of 10000 guitly or at fault shall we say, and some of us questioning how a German Broadcaster can state this to the German people...the numbers are obviously in between their figures and others many of us can raise. If Tamino's way inches this sort of thing out then so be it. I would never have known that a dram I thought was just a good war drama...seems to have other intent...The 10,000 figure shocks me. And would have gone straight over my head unless he pointed it out.

The rest is subjective...I'd say this debate is still worthwhile having..If it points out such things. A few of us our incredulous at the makers at this moment in time.

Tamino and yourself Belasar have a seperate discussion going on in between here. I support you both..and not sitting on any fence...But as you say..facts do matter...But even facts have grey areas.

I'll agree the Wermacht were not all guilty of any war crimes.

Tamino though seems to be getting somewhere by saying provocatively....Prove it...

 

Urqh, If you let me I'd put my signature under your post. I share your views. Or should I say, you present my views better than I ever could.

I personally have very positive opinion on Germans in general and I have cordial relationships with many of them and have even distant German relatives. This film, however, and the discussion it has triggered makes me regretfully re-think several issues. If the authors of that film wanted to enhance the picture of the Nazi generation they shouldn't have shot that film at all.

In Nazi Germany even Church ardently supported Nazis, except some minor Christian community. They knew; it is impossible to organize a mass murders of such a scale except by disclosing a plan to the executioners. Denial makes that crime even uglier.

It is true, many willing executioners have got away with it but this alone doesn't relieve them from responsibility. Victims and their relatives cannot be deprived from the right to say: "Look at the murderer! He's got away with it!" The same right goes to the relatives of those murdered by Wehrmacht if they say: "Look at the murderers! They've got away with it!" What to think about those who murdered every fifth human being around you? Including children, women, elderly people ...

After watching this film Poles wouldn't love the Germans even more than they did before.

I am not pointing my finger to the present day Germans, God forbid, I am talking about the Nazis exclusively.