Germans bypass Stalingrad

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theer was an old,narrow canal - the Rhine - Main - Nekar.
I ccommend dthe forum for this topic, as the last one I belonged to went snake over the same topic.
the Grozny oil fields are very shallow, there is a possibbility that they would have been a game changerè.

 

Thanks Clint for the useful map. Below is another indicating the main transportation lines available to soviets for transportation of oil and fuel.

 

Hey,I've been laying out my brilliant thought for a whole week without even one salute!

 

One thing I would like to point out that the Germans never could completely shut down to river crossing into Stalingrad,

 

Indeed. Even if they did, there were alternative routes to bring fuel to the north (see the map from my previous post). To stop Soviets they had either to destroy or to capture Baku facilities intact. However, Nazis have refrained from destroying Baku because they wanted and needed Soviet fuel to enable the global war against the Western Alies.

 

Actually looking at that map it appears there were 3 basic routes the oil flowed into the SU from either the Middle East of the Caucasus.

- Baku to Makhachkala to Rostov then on further
- Across the Caspian Sea to Makhachkala, Astrakhan or present day Turkmenbashi
- Two routes from Turkmenbashi and present day Mashad? linking up at Ashgabat then heading into the SU by what appears to be a long route.

Occupation of the Caucasus as well as a small naval flotilla in the Caspian could cut LL and oil shipments via these regions as much as 70% +.

 

Tamino raises an excellent point. the Caucasus is a èdefensive Barrierè as well as a source of raw materials! If you plug the ends, the Soviets have very few routes of cross mountain attack. The Causcasus is a key area for speciality crop production, & rather nice for wintering troops-think of Provence!

Capturing the shallow Chechen fields was key, as the shallow wells could be quickly replaced. Baku would be nice, but not necessary if you can bring Chechnyia, then eventually MayKop on stream.
If you reach the Caspian, you can effectively block the shippping.
& thanksto every one who responded to my è-whining for salutes!

 

Explain to me how the Germans are are going to supply a naval flotilla on the Caspain, they had difficulties just supplying Stalingrad, not to mention the difficulties in getting one there. People seem to think that just because the Germans would want to get a flotilla there that it was that easy. I keep saying that there are no roads in the area. Plus whats to prevent the Soviets from building a larger flotilla.

 

In the event of the Caucasus region falling into Axis hands a follow on result would be that the Black Sea would become like that Baltic, Basically an Axis controlled lake with at best the remainder Soviet naval forces holed up in a port some where besieged. With the control they would to an extent be able to operate safely merchant vessels in the area, Use of merchant vessels and barges which they had more then enough to support a small naval flotilla could reach the Caspian Sea from Romania in a fairly short time, A week or so.

I had already stated in earlier post that the route which could be used to get the vessels into the Caspian is also the route that could be used to keep them supplied. =).

As for the Soviets building up there own force, Nothing to stop them, But there were only 3 ship building companies (Soviet Controlled) in the Caspian all of which were in range of German bombers, And while I dont mean to say the facilities would be destroyed outright, The ships under construction would be either destroyed or severely slowed down. I should point out that the SU did have its own flotilla there, from WWI it comprised 3 auxiliary cruisers, 10 torpedo boats and 4 submarines however they would be all very old and poorly kept.

So the SU trying to get into an arms ace in the Caspian would be pointless, Would be like diverting resources into an unfulfillable pit. They would save more time and resources expanding there rail and pipe lines around the Caspian.

 

If the Germans would take Caucasus and the oil fields, I have a feeling the Red Army Air Force and later the other Allied Air Forces would consider these oil fields a major target for bombing whether the Germans would get oil or not. After bombing-not.

 

Agreed, as to the effect well that we can never figure out. Different distances, terrain, targets etc leaves open to much guess work with out the French/British bombing the Caucasus as had been proposed.

But with just guess work I'd figure there targets wouldn't so much be the oil fields but the pipe lines, possible refineries and the rail lines.

Though if the Germans were smart they would make it look like there trying to get oil, have the Allies divert lot's of resources against a non existent threat, But then again the Axis had Hitler so being smart wasn't in his vocabulary, or any of his Generals if he could help it, Hitler would probably agree to make it look like something is happening then waste his resources defending it o.0.

 

Also I recall about the Ukrainian coal that it was different in composition to the German coal, unfortunately I don´t remember now was it more usable to trains or something else. But I recall that it was not immediately usable as to what Hitler intended it to. So another setback to Hitler´s ideas. Wonder if someone knows about the coal compostion vs availability to usage in Ukraine? Thanx for all the info.

 

I am trying to point out that the due to the lack of roads or rail lines the supply of any force on the Caspian would be difficult and require a lot of trucks that were in short supply. The distance from Rostov to Astrakhan is about 400 miles so you are talking an 800 mile round trip. The trucks would have to carry their own fuel which would limit their load capacity and assuming 100 miles a day driving which is generous it would take 8 days for a round trip. This does not even factor breakdowns. Look at how hard it was to supply Stalingrad.

 

No problem. Göring promises to take care of all supply etc problems. Luftwaffe can do it again and again...

 

Supply would be an issue, But considering limited opposition in the target area (most Soviet forces of strength being in Stalingrad, North of Stalingrad or on the opposite side of the Volga) there main issue would be fuel, Which the Luftwaffe was able to deliver about 200 tones a day. Could also be alieviated by use of the manych river as more of it falls into Axis control.

 

Great idea!

Göring himself could have brought the battleship »Bismarck« to the Caspian by air! That would be the end to the Soviet Caspian fleet.

EDIT: Almost unnecessary, but to avoid confusion whatsoever, I am adding a smiley:

 

First they had to get it from the bottom of the Atlantic, but im sure Goering could do it.

 

Interesting...

In October, the Romanian Air Corps arrived (180 aircraft) which attacked rail targets north east of Stalingrad and eased the air situation. Logistics were stretched and the front in Stalingrad formed into a stalemate, with the Germans having taken central and southern Stalingrad. With no reinforcements, and having lost 14 percent of his strength, Richthofen turned to support the German Army in the Caucasus. Göring ordered him to concentrate on Stalingrad, but Richthofen refused to return. This prompted a meeting between Hitler, Jeschnonnek and Göring on 15 October. Hitler was in a good mood, and he had taken personal command of Army Group Bs operations in the Caucasus on 9 September. He supported Richthofen and gave him the authority to continue, partly in the belief that the battle in Stalingrad was nearly over.

Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The Manych doesnt go any where near Astrakhan. How effective will the airlift be during winter. Plus how will the barges get there. I think you give the Germans far too much ability to handle that difficult of a supply issue.

 

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By 1942 ungulded rockets can make short work of any slow tankers on a predictable shuttle route.
Naval swift boats can be trasported by rail ( and were)