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Also, I have one of myself with my Opa's costume!!! I would be the first 18-year-old Oberstleutnant with RK (and if my Opa purchases that RK mit Eichenlaub, even better!!! ) and a piercing in the mouth!!!

 

That would be great to see the pics when you can sir.

Also--just imagine trying to go through a medal detector( metal is misspelled on purpose) at an airport.

PS, I would like a signed foto from him if possible--I can send a few dollars for expenses--please let me know what he says.

 

Well said 9th SS. I do 12th SS and I have never had anyone cause problems for me or my unit while i have been around with only one exception. At an event i did this summer some drunk idiot came up and said 'do you know you killed 6 million jews'. We looked at each other in amazement and then our senior NCO, resplendant in his uniform said 'well, I didnt, I wasn't born at the time, in fact i dont think many of our members were' and the bloke looked sad and walked off. It was very tempting to turn round and say 'and you tried to save them did you?' or something equeally syinical. The event was a 40's event, there were loads of people of all ages, a good deal of whom were old enough to remember the war, who had lived through the blitz and had family who had fought and died (including my grandparents who were present). We got some flak, we were booed as we won the battle and so on, but it was all in good humour and people came, congratulated us and forced us to drink loads of tea (to proove we were British). There are some events to which we can't wear our runes but i think that is fair enough because they are in summer and we wouldent wear them anyway, too hot. In my experience people ask what we do and why but there is little hostility towards us just because rather than chooseing to be brits or yanks we are the 'enemy'. On the other hand I do get irritated with the number of SAS and para re-enactors who turn up, normally in pairs and without proper kit, that is not respectful to the real men and if there is one thing we are, it is respectful to veterans, of BOTH sides.

One thing though, I am no way a Nazi sympathiser or anything like that and our rules on being right wing etc are strict within the group (similar to those 9th ss described) however, whenever I watch a film like Stalingrad or Cross of Iron I want the Germans to win, does anyone else get this?

 

OK, let me try, Carl!

Yes, I think he might say yes, he is a very good man! And by the way, don't insult me! Put those dollars away!!!

 

Hey Stefan, thanks for your kind words.

Has anyone ever noticed that when folks give you static about being "the bad guys", it is usually from someone born post-war? I mean, we have a lot of veterans and their wives come to see us at events and things, and I have NEVER had any of them offer anything other then praise and appreciation for our efforts.

I think they understand and "get it" more so then the generation of today. And you would think that if anyone would take offense to our presence, it would be the men and women that actually fought against and lived through those times. Strange that those born after the fact seem to take it more personally.

 

OK, just let me know when you began production

 

Are you talkin' to me?

Are you talkin' to me?

 

Welllllll, I just aint whistling Dixie!

 

I` not a re-enactor but I feel I must make a point about the misgivings I have about SS re-enactors.
Do these people not know that the SS was the military wing of the Nazi party. While the majority of units may have not had any hand in war crimes, the officers and men were people who believed in the Nazi ideology, and would have considered, Jews, Slavs and any other non-aryan race sub-human, and not worthy of a place in the future Reich.
So while people who dress up in the uniform of the Heer can tell themselves that the majority of the men in these units were just normal people who were only doing their duty. The people who dress up in SS gear have no such easy get-out

 

Well, according a recent multi-episode series on the Holocaust I viewed a few weeks ago, the German army was just as barbaric, if not more so, then the Waffen SS when it came to the slaughter of innocents. Numerous former Heer soldiers provided testimony about seeing fellow German Army soldiers engaged in machine gunning of Jews and other undesireables while in Russia and in the East. Much footage was shown of Heer troops engaged in the rounding up of people. So, honestly, I don't see much of an "out" for folks who do a Heer impression.
I fully understand who and what the Waffen SS were about and what they represented. I have spent a lot of time, effort, and money studying them through the years. However, the fact remains that most WWII reenactments center around battles and recreations of military actions. That is what attracts me to the hobby, and why I chose to do Waffen SS. My group, and no other group that I am aware of, is in any way, shape, or form involved in any form of white supremacy, KKK, or fascist glorification or advancement. We are not politically motivated at all. We portray a combat formation, pure and simple.
Redcoat, you are aware that the military wing of the Nazi party allowed such undesireables as Muslim Serb's into its ranks? And that such "unter-mensch" as Latvians, Slavs, etc served? Heck, the 14th Waffen SS Division was made up of Ukranian volunteers. 5th SS was volunteers from Nordic countries. I take it that you are aware that over 1,000,000 men served in the Waffen SS, and that non-Aryan members did join and serve?
The Waffen SS was a complex and diverse organization, perhaps more so then the Heer. Don't get me wrong, or misunderstand me, I am not an apologist for the Waffen SS, nor am I in any way trying to glorify the regime they fought for.
I have no regrets or misgivings about my hobby or the portrayal I do. I am playing a role, not living a life style, and I believe most of my fellow reenactors understand the difference as well. The fact that we choose to be "the bad guys" is not an indication of our character, thoughts, or political idealogy, but rather a reflection of the historical reality.

 

What period or people can you play that didnt do 'bad things' or have racist elements? The British army was hardly racist free, The Americans were not exactly eualitarian and the Russians were not so keen on Germans. How about the Napoleonic wars? The British are guilty of raping and pillaging loads of places, think Badajoz and so on. When it comes down to it if the war had gone differently the SS might have been remembered as heroes. Just because people joined the SS didn't make them racist pigs, just as being in the army (any army) doesnt make people clean. Where did all the thieves, murders, rapeists and so on go when the war started? The army, obviously, well, those without criminal records. The SS were not actually part of the party, members of the SS were not always party members. It originated as a wing of the party sure, but the Waffen SS was not part of it. They were not responsible for concentration camps. In my case the unit I portray is relativley clean, no involvement in the east, no rounding up of civilians etc. In any case the majority of Germans believed in the Nazi ideology to some degree, on the other hand many Russians believed in the Soviet ideas and there were sympathisers with the Germans and Russians in the allied ranks.

One final thing to add to this rant (sorry, it is not as organised as i intended) is that if someone is not willing to 'be the bad guy' there will be something missing. Go to a french museum, or a german one, where there is nothing to show that the SS existed, this will give you a distorted view of history. We must remember the bad as well as the good, on both sides.

 

Around 1944-1945 masses of men were recruited into the Waffen SS anyway, whether they liked it or not. Didn't the number of SS divisions rise from a dozen to over thirty in that time? Probably if the war had continued for another year there would have been no Heer left.

 

As a footnote to what Andreas said, according to Rudolf von Ribbentrop (THE Forign Ministers son) and an Obersturmfuhrer in a Panzer Regiment in the LSSAH Pz Div. Ribbontrop said ((In reading pare of his diary published in Panzer Aces by Franz Kurowski)) that in 1943, the Waffen SS was taking many men who were forcably transferred from the Luftwaffe to the Waffen SS. The Luft guys didnt care to be put into a line unit such as LSSAH, but had no choice in the matter--according to Rudolf von Ribbontrop--that is.

[ 28 September 2002, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

 

Yes, it is true that many, many men were forced to join the Waffen SS. Even members of das Heer whose units had ceased to exist. My grabdfather told me once that he would have prefered to desert rather than serve in the SS... I don't know why does he hate SS so much...

 

The reason was probably as we know that Hitler had lost all the remnants of his faith in the army Generals by Kharkov 1943. After this Hitler believed that Waffen SS could do anything and therefore got the best guns and newest tanks and were refreshed with men in the first place.

Also among men the SS runes seem to have had some effect, as these troops were almost always feared by the enemy and succeeded in their tasks marvellously.Of course they had good clothing, better weaponry and better food supply which naturally adds to it.I only know SS Nord that actually was not very good at fighting.

Indeed the racial question does sound funny as Waffen SS would take Russians, muslims etc to fight in their divisions later on. During the first picks in the 1930´s for LAH you could not have a mended tooth...

 

Actually, the Waffen SS did NOT always get the best men, equipment, and resources. It is becoming a bit of "urban legend" that Waffen SS units got preferential treatment when it came to weaponry.

For example, while fitting out, 9th and 10th Waffen SS Panzer divisions had Stug III's making up their 7th and 8th Panzer companies, instead of the standard Mk IV's which should have formed the tanks in these units.

Also, please see:

http://www.wssob.com/weapons.html

You will find the following passage there, which I have seen echoed in many texts that I have read:

"In beginning of WWII, the W-SS has difficulty getting adequate equipment, as the Whermacht received preferential distribution of new weaponry. The W-SS had to rely on captured stocks
of weapons to arm its units, and it was particularly difficult for the Waffen-SS to get artillery.
Although the steryotype is that the Waffen-SS was always armed with the best the German arms industry could manufacture, this is only partially true. The "classic" divisions such as 1st SS-Panzer Division "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" 2nd SS-Panzer Division "Das Reich", 3rd SS-Panzer Division "Totenkopf" and 5th SS-Panzer Division "Wiking" were certainly armed with most and the best armored fighting vehicles Nazi Germany could produce, but the majority of Waffen-SS units had to make due with weapons of lesser caliber - French artillery, Russian light tanks, Czech machine guns, etc. "

Don't forget that there was a lot of animosity between the classic "Heer" and the upstart Waffen SS, and this fit in classicly with Hitler's pattern of playing rivals off of one another. The Heer looked down their noses at the Waffen SS, derisively referring to them as "the Asphalt Soldiers" due to their parade marching precision and perceived lack of fighting ability. And in their first campaigns, the Waffen SS did not do too much to disprove that stigma, as they often, in their zeal to prove their superiority, loyalty to the cause, and fearlessness, engaged in high-risk attacks against prepared Polish and French positions. Hence, they began to get the reputation that they were tactially unskilled and that their methods were wasteful of lives and resources. (The fact that they had next to no armored support was not taken into account, apparently). It wasn't until well into 1941 and the war in Russia that the Waffen SS began to really start to become a professional fighting force, as experience and new tactics based on their learned experience coupled with their unique training and indoctrinization began to produce the fighting force that defined the Waffen SS in it's "classic" years, from 1942-1945.

I think the idea that the Waffen SS always got the best men and material was born during the war, as it gave Allied commanders a justification for when the were beaten in the field by a Waffen SS unit (Hey, it was the elite of the German military with the best and newest weapons that beat us), and it gained strength in the postwar years as Heer leaders sought to explain why the Waffen SS compiled the admirable fighting record that they did (They got all the best stuff, we had to make do with leftovers). In addition, to assume that the Waffen SS units always got the cream of the crop lends credence to Allied victories and further validates the fighting prowess of the Allied armies in Western Europe, where they routinely butted heads with Waffen SS units (Caen, Mortain, Falaise, Arnhem, Bastogne, etc).

 

One thing important not to forget is: that the Waffen SS--had Assault Gun Kompanies too--not all were Panzer. Assault Gun Kompanies played a large part in the Waffen SS being a success.

 

The Waffen SS did not do much before 1941: It was not until the invasion of the Balkans when they had tremendous success and later in "Barbarossa", when they were only motorised regiments. In 1940, by example, the Waffen SS Units are hardly mentioned, because the enormous success of units like the "Grossdeutschland", Panzer divisions 1st, 2nd and 7th, etc. And indeed, my father says that marshall Von Bock did not like the SS at all. Rommel didn't like them either. Why then there were not any Waffen SS units in the African forces? They were just a propaganda thing, which made much to hurt the pride of the old and traditional German Heer.

 

I would like too see the Waffen-SS like this page from the same site as 9th Waffen SS put:

http://www.wssob.com/combat.html

The LAH was called "the asphalt soldiers " but later on as they proved the fighting capability it was not mentioned again. Instead they were called " The Hitler´s fire brigade" if I remember right. The Waffen-SS may have had a political background but many commanders of Wehrmacht were especially in the eastern front quite happy to have a Waffen-SS division in their use. For example Von Manstein and Totenkof in AGN in autumn 1941.

The loss of men during battle was part of the tactics.Very sad tactics, but it also included the idea of getting less losses with aggressive pushes through the front.And faster victories. The men were trained to want to fight, and combat was their life. Many a time the Waffen-SS were thanked for taking part in a battle on their own, and not waiting for orders from above.

Not all the Waffen-SS troops were elite.Not all the Waffen-SS troops got the best tanks but LAH, Das Reich,Totenkopf, HJ, Götz von Berlichingen and many more were to my knowledge equipped twith the latest technology as long as possible. From 1943 after Kharkov battles Hitler believed in SS firmly as they had saved the battle, and believed they would win the war for him.Wehrmacht had elite divisions as well, Grossdeutschland just as one to bring up.
The late divisions numbered 20 or more I would not bring them up here as by then many of them were created in a rush.Some didn´t even exist except by number and name, I think.

Also, The waffen SS had its own supply system compared to Wehrmacht at least until 1943, when Hitler decided that Waffen-SS would get the new panzers as well. I remember having read that Waffen-SS had to buy their tanks from the army for their own use, maybe until 1943.

I do think that not only the equipment ( Tigers, Panthers etc ) was the reason for many allied losses but the fighting spirit and in some cases the fanaticism of the troops by the Germans. The Us forces didn´t have the kind of idea of dying for their country, as they were far from home, on another continent, maybe not even sure why they were fighting.Then again HJ soldiers were ready to die for Fuhrer, and very motivated. They literally died in their bunkers and fox holes.That sure makes a difference whether you win or lose, and that´s why the allied didn´t get to Caen for a month. This also happened in the Winter War.

 

You can't be more right, Kai! But I am still not liking the Waffen SS... I can't think of better men than an average infantry division of the Wehrmacht, which was its base and majority; and certainly: soul.