Ground Attack Aircraft

The same applies of German ground attack a/c taking on Soviet Motor transport. In this case Fw 190's attacking a long stream of vehicles and the devastation is incredible. The 2cm Minen geschoss was a terrible round ! This being taken in 1945.

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Ju 87 Stuka....because the tail siren was as mentally damaging as the bombs were physically. Whenever I see one on TV, I imagine what it must have been like to hear that sound in person and know exactly what it meant.

 

There were two completely different philosophies in ground attack: one was to modify a fighter, the other was to design a specialised GA aircraft. In general, the modified fighters were more flexible as they could defend themselves against enemy fighters or be used to attack enemy bombers. However, the GA planes were better at their specific task as they were better armoured and could carry a heavy gun armament (much more accurate in dealing with tanks than rockets or bombs). So which was better depended on the circumstances.

The Soviets relied primarily on specialised aircraft, namely the Il-2. Most versions carried the powerful 23mm VYa cannon, a few carried the very powerful 37mm NS-37 which was capable of punching a hole in any tank. Their fighters were also occasionally used for strafing ground targets, of course, but were not dedicated to that role. The most interesting was the Yak-9T, which carried one of the NS-37 guns. Although intended for air combat, it was the only fighter with the gunpower to knock out a Tiger tank! It wasn't armoured for the ground-attack role, however.

The British and Americans relied on modified fighters, if only because they had no choice; their prewar philosophy was against developing specialised GA aircraft so when they might have proved useful in 1944, they didn't have any. The only real anti-tank planes were the Hurricane IID and IV but their 40mm guns were not that powerful and couldn't deal with the Tigers, so they were withdrawn from Europe in early 1944. The US twin-engined attack planes were far too big and vulnerable over the battlefield and in Europe were used as bombers. The rockets and bombs carried by the Typhoons and P-47s were far too inaccurate to hit a tank except occasionally by chance.

The Germans used both specialised attack planes (Ju 87, Hs 129) and modified fighters (Fw 190). The best design was undoubtedly the Hs 129. Although it was a twin, it was very small and weighed far less than a P-47. It could carry very big guns under the fuselage and fire them with great accuracy against tanks. Most had the 30mm MK 101 or MK 103, but some had the BK 3,7 and even the BK 7,5 - a massive anti-tank gun. Its main problem was the very unreliable engines.

The dispute between specialised GA aircraft and fighter-bombers goes on today in the USAF, between the supporters of the A-10 and the F-16.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

 

Thanks again, Tony - to me, the Hs129 is one of WWII's lesser-known aircraft.
I think the engines were Gnome-et-Rhone or something like that ? Probably sabotaged....

 

I agree with all your thoughts, Tony! Welcome, glad to have you here!

I think that too, Martin.

 

You guys need to secure a volume on the Hs 129 by English author Martin Pegg

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True, the Pegg book is definitive, but it is also very big and expensive. I can recommend "Hs 129 in Action" by Denes Bernad, from Squadron/Signal, which is a fraction of the price. This describes and illustrates the major variations very clearly.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

 

I saw that somebody made a reference to the Hurricane being withdrawn from Europe in 1944 because it could not deal with Tigers.

The insane thing gents is that this airframe was versatile enough to soldier on through until 1944 having reached operational squadrons from 1937 onwards. Truly a testament to the genius of Sidney Camm. There are not many other airframes that could boast this achievement.

I have to go with the Typhoon/Tempest mix. P47 tends to lose it's sting after the payload has gone - I'd prefer the 20mm cannons to .50 cal machine guns to chew up ground targets.

Jumbo

 

Playing silly, today.

Which was the best GA air-craft? Don't know. What if we ask the 500 tanks crews who faced Herr Rudel?!

 

That is IF Rüdel indeed destroy that many Panzers ! Personally I think his claims are also from many of his Kameraden in SG 3. Even his memories written do not give sufficent dates to his claims. Guess we will wait for the future monster book on the Ju 87 to be released in the near future by English author M. **** ! With all his research over the years I am hopefull we can come to positive conclusion(s) about Rüdel and all the Panzerstaffeln aces.

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Crap ! my hands are in bad shape today so typing is going to be tedious.....

Should read for his unit SG 2 "Immelmann"

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Well, I didn't know that guy existed until I first entered this forum and made some research. I would be good to know what exactly did he do.

 

F :

I can believe that R destroyed maybe 350 tanks but you have to look at the rest of the men in his unit. It always appears that R and his gunner are all alone flying the Soviet skies looking for prey. I don;t buy that he was alone for a second, that others of his unit were also there. Rüdel did have the ultimate knack for scoring, he was that good, but there were also some other high scorers in SG 1, 3 and 77 as they should not be overlooked, but that have been. I am trying to compile a listing of the top notch Schlacht aces and I am getting brief information just because there isn't that much on these brave men, and also nothing has been written except Rüdels memories which indeed have not given many basic facts. Sure there hsas been a multitude of photos of the man and his staff but text is simple and quite little in the way of good material. Again the big out print book on the Hs 129 by Martin Pegg would be a chocie book to have and worth the monies if you could find a copy, but even so a total tally for the individaul staffeln that flew the bird is not given. Why, I have no clue....

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The Hurri lasted a bit longer in the Far East, where the 40mm remained effective against Japanese tanks. The last squadron stood down in June 1945.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

 

A Colt 0,45 can pierce a Japanesse tank!!!

I told you, playing silly today...

 

Tony :

speaking of the 3.7cm equipped on the Ju 87G variants. Were all the rounds tungsten cored ? I don't remember if HE rounds were used or not.

thoughts please

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The anti-tank rounds were tungsten-cored. However, the plane was sometimes used against other targets (Rudel once went hunting boats which were transporting enemy troops across a large lake) and HE might have been used then - it would certainly have been more effective, and of course the ammo would have been readily available from a Flak unit.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

 

Il-2 clearly superior to anything the Germans fielded. people tend to overlook the attributes of reliability, ease of manufacture (and repair,) durability, affordability.
What would be more effective, more cost-productive: an Hs-129 or 3 Sturmoviks? (I'm guessing at the ratio, but it's probably close.)
Engine performance is more critical than weapons systems. The 600hp. Gnome-Rhones on the 129 immediately take it out of the running. When you add to that the engine's poor design and unreliability, the plane is a certain contender for the "Pig" pile. (I mean... after the fall of France, the Germans were left with a bunch of these crappy French airplane engines; so, they tried to figure a way to build a good airplane around them. And they failed.)
The Typhoon was a work of art, and the design of the engine was a remarkable achievement, but, here you've got a delicate powerplant, which was difficult to repair and very expensive. At this stage of the war, the Allies could afford to experiment with sophisticated, expensive designs.
The narrow applications of the Ju-87 were what forced the Germans to consider other designs (such as the 129.)
The P-47, Corsair, Mustang, P-38, and all the U.S. planes totally out-classed anything out there. Again, because of their massive powerplants, they could carry more weapons, at a greater speed. The Pratt engine of the Thunderbolt was stronger than the FOUR combined engines of two Hs-129s!
Radial-engined P-47s and Corsairs were resiliant to ground fire and very reliable.
Compare a Ju-87 against a P-51D and you're looking at planes from two different eras. Could you imagine a Ju-87 flying ground attack in Korea?
The German planes definitely have a certain neat-o factor, like the Me-410 or He 219, but in the real world none of them would be my first choice.

 

Tony Williams:
Welcome to the forum. I've posted this image before. Maybe you have some ideas as to what model German plane this is (was.)
Photo was taken early in 1945.
Location is either Holland or Belgium, but could be Germany.
My humble opinion is that it is some sort of short-range reconnaisance/aerial observation/army cooperation a/c, somewhat similar in function to the Siebel SI 201.
I do not believe it is a trainer, as it is single seat. Although, it could be a trainer for a specific type of plane.

 

What's the purpose iof the mickey mouse emblem ?

the glider you speak of is a training item used by pre operative Luftwaffe pilots. Maybe one in two dozen different prototypes used during the war. Camo'd and id in US markings.