HBO's "The Pacific"

formerjughead wrote:

Thanks, I thought I had read that but wasn't sure if it was accurate. I figured you'd probably know for sure.
Thanks for the links.

kerrd5,
Thanks for the links, I found a bunch of good stuff on the second one.

 

Your experiences in the Marine Corps can certainly add insight to this discussion. But are you a WWII Marine Corps vet? You speak as if every Marine Corps recruit from WWII through Afghanistan had the same experiences in the Marines. You and your comrades were not raised in the same culture or society as WWII Marines, and young Marines today, were not raised in the same culture and society as you were. Granted, maybe some Marine Corps behavior takes on a tradition, and remains constant over decades, but we cannot assume that is fact. It is a mistake, in my opinion to say [I'm paraphrasing] "This is what I experienced in the Marine Corp, so Leckie had to experience the same situations." As a student of history, you could use your personal experiences as a question, then corroborate them with testimonies of actual WWII Marine Corps vets, either written or interviewed. The comparisons and contrasts would be interesting. Even if it could be proved that Marine Corps culture had not changed one bit in six decades, the society that produce the recruits has, and their reaction to it will differ.

 

Greg I don't want to start an argument so please don't take it that way; but, the Marine Corps has been instilling the same core values since Samuel Nichols painted the first yellow footprints outside Tun Tavern. I will concede the fact that many different people enter the Marine Corps every year and everyone is fundamentally the same when they graduate. The exception to that rule is Anthony Swafford and the merriad of people who refer to themselves as EX-Marines. There is a shared lineage and a common hardship that transcends generational boundaries. Marines have been trained at the same two places since 1932: Parris Island, South Carolina and San Diego, California....Black Marines were trained at Montford Point, North Carolina.

Only Marines truly appreciate what it means to be a Marine. The rifles and uniforms are updated; but, a Marine who fought at Belleau Wood would feel right at home in todays Marine Corps.

 

Of course the pay has gone up....

 

formerjughead wrote:

Correction DevilDog, we've been training Marines at Parris Island since 1915! Hah, you Hollywood Marines may have tougher humps but we've been around longer.

BTW, my Uncle Charlie went to boot camp at MCRD San Diego and made Pusan, Inchon, Soeul, and the Reservoir.

Marine Cpl. Charles E. Price sounds "Taps" over the graves of fallen Leathernecks during memorial services Dec. 13, 1950, at the 1st Marine Division cemetery at Hungnam, Korea, following the division's break-out from the Chosin Reservoir. DoD Photo by Cpl. W.T. Wolfe, USMC.


Cpl. Charles Price sounds "Taps" over the graves of fallen Leathernecks during memorial services at the 1st Marine Division cemetery at Hungnam, Korea, following the division's break-out from Chosin Reservoirin North Korea. The photo was taken Dec. 13, 1950. DoD Photo by Cpl. W.T. Wolfe, USMC.


You'll appreciate this tidbit formerjughead, the bugle he's playing taps on was captured from the Chinese during the Boxer Rebellion. Tradition, OoohRah!

You summed it up perfectly my friend. How about some quotes to illustrate to others, what it is to be a Marine and why we stay dedicated to our beloved Corps until they put us in the ground. Maybe they'll also understand why there is such visceral hatred of Anthony Swafford. He is either an inveterate liar or sold out the Corps to make a profit. Either way he's despised about as much as a heretic is and if they still burned people at the stake I'd supply the wood and matches.

Marines have a cynical approach to war. They believe in three things; liberty, payday and that when two Marines are together in a fight, one is being wasted. Being a minority group militarily, they are proud and sensitive in their dealings with other military organizations. A Marine’s concept of a perfect battle is to have other Marines on the right and left flanks, Marine aircraft overhead and Marine artillery and naval gunfire backing them up.
—War correspondent Ernie Pyle, killed on Ie Shima, Ryukyu Archipelago, 1945

And once by God, I was a Marine!
—Actor Lee Marvin, circa, 1967, about serving in WW II

The Marine Corps has been called by the New York Times the “elite” Corps of this country. I think it is the “elite” Corps of the world.
—Adm William F. Halsey, 4thMarDiv reunion, Washington, D.C., 11 June 1949

…These Marines have the swagger; confidence, and hardness that must have been in Stonewall Jackson’s Army of the Shenandoah. They remind me of the Coldstreams at Dunkerque.
—A British military officer visiting the U.S. Marines in Korea included the above in his daily report to the British command in Tokyo, 16 Aug. 1950

I have just returned from visiting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world!
—General of the Army Douglas MacArthur on the outskirts of Seoul, Korea, 21 Sept. 1950

I’m going to fight my way out, I’m going to take all my equipment and all my wounded and as many dead as I can. If we can’t get out this way, this Division will never fight as a unit again.
—MajGen Oliver P. Smith, CG, lstMarDiv, Korea, 1950, to LtGen Ned Almond, USA, X Corps, who suggested Smith’s division escape the Chosin Reservoir by letting “every man go out on foot by himself.”

We’ve been looking for the enemy for several days now. We’ve finally found them. We are surrounded. That simplifies the problem of getting to these people and killing them.”
—Col Lewis B. “Chesty” Puller, Chosin Reservoir, Korea 1950

Don’t you forget that you’re Marines- First Marines! Not all the communists in hell can overrun you!
—Col Lewis B. “Chesty” Puller, rallying his 1st Marines near Chosin Reservoir, Korea, December 1950

Marines are about the most peculiar breed of human beings I have ever witnessed. They treat their service as if it was some kind of cult, plastering their emblem on almost everything they own, making themselves up to look like insane fanatics with haircuts to ungentlemanly lengths, worshiping their Commandant almost as if he was a god, and making weird noises like a band of savages. They’ll fight like rabid dogs at the drop of a hat just for the sake of a little action, and are the cockiest SOBs I have ever known. Most have the foulest mouths and drink well beyond man’s normal limits, but their high spirits and sense of brotherhood set them apart and, generally speaking, of the United States Marines I’ve come in contact with, are the most professional soldiers and the finest men I have had the pleasure to meet.
—Anonymous Canadian

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.
Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you **** with me, I'll kill you all.
Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders

"For the mission's sake, for our country's sake, and the sake of the men who carried the Division's colors in past battles — "who fought for life and never lost their nerve" — carry out your mission and keep your honor clean. Demonstrate to the world there is “No Better Friend, No Worse Enemy” than a U.S. Marine. " James Mattis's message to his Marines just before the 2003 invasion of Iraq

General Mattis is a legend with the current generation of Marines, kinda' like their Chesty Puller.

"The Marines fought almost solely on esprit de corps, I was certain. It was inconceivable to most Marines that they should let another Marine down, or that they could be responsible for dimming the bright reputation of their Corps. The Marines simply assumed that they were the world's best fighting men." --- Robert Sherrod, 1943, regarding the battle at Tarawa.

 

Greg Canellis,

You raise some legitimate points, I'll attempt to answer.

No.

I'm not implying that they are exactly the same but they are very similar. Like formerjughead said, "The rifles and uniforms are updated; but, a Marine who fought at Belleau Wood would feel right at home in todays Marine Corps." , the weapons and combat uniforms change but the Marine Corps as an institution has changed very little.

True, the civilian culture has changed, but the Marine Corps culture really hasn't, so the culture the Marine is raised in is really irrelevant. Also while culture changes, people have not really changed.

I am not assuming, I can state, from personal observation, that the Marine Corps has changed very little. The Marine Corps is a culture unto itself, regardless of the culture the Marine originally came from. Various writers have described it as almost a religion, a warrior cult, warrior monks etc., there is a great deal of truth in these descriptions. I have two sons and a brother that went to Parris Island after me, their experiences differed very little from what I experienced. My experiences differed very little from those of my father, who graduated from Parris Island twenty years before me. I first read "Helmet for My Pillow" close to thirty years ago and remember how much like Leckie's descriptions my Marine Corps was. My oldest son read it a month or so ago and told me "It's amazing how little the Marine Corps has changed". The Marine Corps is relatively, very small and even at it's greatest strength during WWII it had less infantry battalions than the Army had Airborne and Glider battalions. It's small size allows it to maintain it's unique character and culture. From day one the Marine Corps indoctrinates it's recruits in it's history, heroes and traditions. That's why when you read an account by a Tarawa Marine, he states he waded through the surf because he didn't want to let down the Belleau Woods Marines that charged through the Wheat Field. The Korean war Marines had to maintain the reputation of the Iwo Marines and the Khe Sahn Marines had to maintain the reputation of the Reservoir Marines and on and on. My uncle Charlie was a Korean War Marine, my uncle Horace was a Marine Raider in the Solomons and later was in the reconstituted 4th Marines at Guam. I grew up around them and heard their stories, I also swapped "sea stories" with them after I became a Marine, up until Horace died a couple of years back. My father was a career Marine. Starting when I was about six, we were living at Camp LeJeune, he'd occasionally take me to work with him, (he was a CWO at the time). I'd hang around his office while he did paperwork, when he went out to attend to his other duties he used to drop me off at supply and leave me in the care of an old Master Sgt. that had been one of Carlson's Raiders. He used to tell me stories, and even hooked me up with my first issue of 782 gear. He kind of took me on as his own personal mini-me and would make sure my gear was squared away so I wouldn't embarrass him. I enjoyed hanging around with him so much, I'd beg my dad to take me to work with him and as soon as I got there I'd head for supply. "Hawd Dayum son, yur helmet cover has got to match your bedroll, didn't yur daddy teach you nothin! It's all gotta be brownside out or greenside out, never mix the two." "Jeesus H. Cheerist son, didn't I teach you better! If yore daddy sees you lookin' like a Gawd Dayum feather merchant he'll have us both on piss' an poke."
I'd help him keep the gear straight and would go fetch him items when he'd issue something to someone. His old WWII buddies from different units would stop by for a cup of coffee, I'd get a Coke and they'd stand around telling "sea stories" as I listened to every word. My family lived on Marine Corps or navy bases for my entire childhood. Over the years, I had interaction with tons of WWII Marines so I have a pretty good idea of what they were like as Marines.
Since I have become an adult I've associated with them at various Marine Corps veterans organizations. I've also read everything I can get on Marine Corps history, I can make an informed judgement if our experiences were similar or different when it comes to the Marine Corps. I cannot and don't pretend to know what it was like to wade through the surf at Tarawa or come ashore at Iwo, only those that were there know that.

That's what I've done all my life. However, even though I was raised around the Marine Corps and Marines, I never really understood it until I became one myself.

 

Farewell to Guadalcanal

http://www.ww2f.com/land-warfare-pacific/37394-farewell-guadalcanal.html

Dave

 

Let's move all the current Old Corps v. New Corps debate as it applies to this show here:

http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-films-tv/40513-hbos-pacific-marine-perspective.html#post477918

until we can persuade a moderator or administrator to move the portions that do not apply to the show.

Brad

 

I liked both epsiodes. There's been some character development, which is great. I'm a little ahead of the series since I'm reading Mr. Sledge's book, which I definitely recommend. I still have to check out Leckie's book. Leckie is proving to be an interesting character.

 

Yeah, I was searching for a character to follow and he seems to be the one who draws the most interest out of me.

 

So busy over the weekend that somehow I missed the second episode!!! Should I just wait now until it is shown again or on DVD? Thanks!

 

It depends on how many HBO channels you get. Part 2 will be replayed on Sunday at 8:00 on HBO2

 

I don't know if you guys get "On Demand" up there. With On Demand, you can watch any HBO program (starting one full day after it originally airs) anytime and pause, FF, rewind etc for 24 hours ... in case you can't watch the whole episode at once.

Greg C.

 

I must admit to being underwhelmed at this point. Perhaps I am expecting too much considering that this was the same people who made BoB.

The Pacific isn't bad, but it isn't BoB either.The acting and dialogue is bland. The battle scenes have not been quite as intense or as long as BoB.

 

Underwhelming is a good word

 

Same here. He's a bit hard to figure out though. In the beginning we see him writing to Vera ( I really like that name because it was my grandmother's ) and then in the preview for next week he's with this random Australian girl. And I would like to see more scenes of him with his father, since he seemed pretty ticked when Leckie enlisted.

 

Do you want me to spoil it for you..........or do you just want to assume he is being a dirtball?

 

No spoilers dude, you know better than that! Do you want to be remembered for that sort of behavior? It's one thing to be a cooler king, which can be badge of honor of sorts, but to be a movie spoiler is akin to not leaving enough toilet paper for your buddy to complete his paperwork properly. That's just so uncouth, even for you...

 

Sledge is also becoming a interesting character.

 

I found this publication yesterday while reading some articles at Naval History Institute. It's an interview with John Basilone on 1Sep1943.
Naval History Sergeant John Basilone, USMC

In an earlier post Greg C. wrote:

I had no idea what dates Basilone served in the Army or when he joined the Marines. In the above listed publication he states he joined the Army in1936 and got out on 05 September 1939. He also states he joined the Marines 0n 11July1940. I like first person accounts, so I saved myself a copy of the PDF on my computer, I thought you'd enjoy the read also.
One thing I found interesting was he tells there were about 300 Marines in the line and the Japanese suffered 2900 KIA, @900 inside the wire and 2000 outside. In Basilones sector the numbers are less exact, he states several hundred inside the wire and @1000 outside the wire. BTW, the wire was only 30 feet in front of their positions.