Holocaust denial is alive...

I'm just telling you what many German Generals complained about after the war-the SS was running everything, and they were diverting what few train engines that they had left for death camp duty, prioritizing that duty over the war effort.

 

a lot of dumb people out there guys

 

sounds more like a good comic I read back in the 60's. the SS had NO jurisdiction over the rail-systems they did however and moreover were very concerned about the Soviets taking over the camps while still manned and delivering unforgiving blows to the Landser and especially anyone related to the SS or for that matter German

 

When ever I see Holocaust denials it just angers me to no end.

anyways, I'm sure that not ALL the trains in Germany were solely used for the transportation of Jews, but so much as one or two would have been a hindrance to the German war effort by 45, or even 44 for that matter.

 

If part of that was directed at me, I didn't say all of them.

The S.A. towards the ends of the war did march some inmates to "safer" areas, not 100% sure on the use of trains to move the camps.

 

They wouldn't, your point being?

Where did this information come from? Firstly I can't help but think that transporting soldiers next to explosives is a recipe for disaster though I'm sure it must have happened. Secondly from what I recall trains carrying people to the camps were totally separate from those used for the war effort (think about it, firstly we would have more reports from troops being transported with Jews and secondly think about where the trains were going, not to the front or to factories etc). I also seem to recall reading somewhere about the way the transport system accommodated this though I can't remember where, it may have been in one of Overy's works or possibly 'Ordinary Men' (afraid I can't check at the mo so don't take this as read).

True though since holocaust victims wouldn't be a priority and could be shifted pretty much as and when (even from place to place, changing locomotive at various locations to free them up for other work) th extent of the problem is debatable.

A note on Sajer, be wary when using him as a source as it is up for debate as a source (I'll dig out the article at some point). At the very least his memory was imperfect so we don't know how accurate his work is.

 

Is this your entire contribution to the discussion?

 

Tristan is right, constructive opinions only please and Colorado I'd appreciate if you could avoid calling those who are being active in this thread "dumb", at least they are giving an opinion you can judge. I'm sure they'd love to hear your "smarter" version.

 

It was a response to another poster who asked by the trains were blowing up if they carried Jews since the previous arguments were about whether the trains were used for the concentration camps or the frontlines. The wink signified I was only kidding.

It may have been a recipe for disaster but it was indeed done, Guy Sajer references it when talking about his time with the transport division and how they had to guard the supplies from terrorists. I believe the scene in Stalingrad where they are heading into Russia by train shows a few shots as well? I realize it's a fictional story based on true events but veterans were called to help with such things. I also realize Sajer is a controversial figure but much of his controversy lies with him having difficulties with the names of battles, people, and in the odd occasions even a unit or two. I'm sure Sajer could have fact checked before writing the book but it was the days before the internet where information was not as readily available or as accurate in comparison, and I doubt "his France" would be very open to answering such questions.

I wasn't saying soldiers (Wehrmacht and S.S. I guess) and Jews would be transported in the same trains, I doubt the S.A. would have wanted to take such a huge risk.

I don't know how high the victims were on the priorities list although during the retreats the Nazi's were pretty eager to "dispose of the evidence" be it by killing everyone in the camps or marching them to different more safer camps.

I think he may have been referring to the Holocaust Deniers.

 

If so, I appologise.

The facts show that while early in the war the trains carrying victims to the death camps were indeed given a lower priority over the use of trains than troops, this isn't surprising as in many cases the trains carrying victims were coming back from the front and had already unloaded the troops and war materiel. However, from testimony after the war we find that from 1944 on things were different.

Also it's pretty much a matter of record that the SS and Gestapo were running everything behind the lines by mid 1944.

According to testimony of many of the German leaders at the tribunals after the war Hitler and his leaders became obsessed that none of the camps should fall into the hands of the enemy and ordered that the victims be transported to camps further from the front for extermination.

An excerpt from the testimony of Rudolph Hoess, the commandant of the SS detachment at Auschwitz:

Here's the link:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/hoesstest.html

Hungary had not cooperated with rounding up Jews and turning them over to the Nazis. In 1944 the country was invaded by the Germans and the Hungarian Jews were rounded up. Over 400,000 of them were immediately shipped to the death camps, using 147 trains needed critcally at the front.

Here is another website that discusses the issue:

http://www.unctv.org/auschwitz/images/print_version/the_holocaust_03.doc

An excerpt:

So, did trainmen and military men disobey these orders? I'm sure that happened. In the closing months of the war there were ptobably as many Gestapo and SS men shot as there were others hanged for not following orders, but the point here was that there was an obsession by the leadership to kill every Jew they could, even at the expense of the war effort. This is a history site, ans that is historical fact. If it seems dumb to you, then maybe you should read more and speculate less.

 

disobey the Führers orders..................YES in capitals, I have already given what you need, the German generals did not have updated info they couldn't in 45 due to the chaos they did not even know daily reprorts due to confusion in and on the lines of the eastern front. Jews were not given the priveledge to ride in train cars in 45 as they did in 1942 when trains, cars, flatbeds when they were in abundance and that is a very important fact. Lets face it here when the war is at a last and you still want to hold out you will not put prisoners of any caliber high on your listing, they are going to walk and anyone that slagers off gets shot or put into real misery.

back to you comments about Hungary had a German friend who served in Hungary and the Jews and other no-likes were shot and left in the streets and along the roads. obviously during the retreat they were discarded fodder not worthy of time on trains. Sad but true.

 

Colorado , please state your point, I would like to know whether those you call "dumb" are rogues in general, or Holocaust deniers, if you were refering to deniers only, I would of course agree to say the least.

 

In case you're interested, the History of Hungarian Jews in WWII is as follows.

Prior to 1944, Hungary was under German control, but was not occupied and was allowed to govern itself. The Jews of Hungary had suffered less than Jews in other parts of Europe by the Nazis up to that point. Of the 825,000 Jews in Hungary, some 63,000 died of maltreatment up to 1944.

Hungary contributed soldiers to the German cause on the Eastern Front and had suffered huge casualties. By 1944 it's leadership had decided to try to make a deal with the allies for capitulation. To stop this the Germans occupied Hungary in March, '44. The Germans immediately ordered all of the Hungarian Jews, outside of Budapest, to concentration camps in urban areas throughout the country. In May of '44 the systematic deportation of nearly the nearly 500,000 Jews in these concentration camps began and over a period of 2 months, under the direction of Adolf Eichmann, about 440,000 of these people were deported, on about 150 trains.

The remainder of the Jews in Hungary were hunted down, most of them murdered by anti-semitic gangs known as Arrow Cross.

Of the 825,000 Jews in Hungary before the war, less than 190,000 survived. Nearly 10% of all the Jews killed were from Hungary and most were sent by rail to Auschwitz in the summer of 1944.

There are dozens, if not hundreds of websites that documet this history.

The Holocaust Chronicle PROLOGUE: Roots of the Holocaust, page 526
The Hungarian Jewry and the Holocaust
Hungary after the German occupation