Human catastrophe

Different Mahdi, from a different tradition, which highlights the problem of view Islam as we would Roman Catholicism. It is actually as splintered and more fractious than Christianity is now.

Gordon's Mahdi, Muhammad Ahmad bin abd Allah was a Samaniyya Sufi. It seems likely he would be declared apostate by Daesh if he arose today. The Shia "Twelvers" who believe in the 12th Iman as the Mahdi are different (although some Sufi's incorporate some Twelver beliefs)...and also are not accepted by all Shia, many of whom are Ismailli's. And so on.

 

The Kahan Commission found him guilty enough...Not that it affected his career much.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/mfadocuments/yearbook6/pages/104%20report%20of%20the%20commission%20of%20inquiry%20into%20the%20e.aspx

 

responsability is not guilt

 

This is proving what I am saying : the theory of the return of the Mahdi is not limited to one group in the Islam,but spreaded over the whole Islam :from the founder of the Druze sect 1000 yeaes ago to the founder of the Nation of Islam in 1930 .

There are a lot of fractions in the Islam but they all have common their hostility to non Muslims and their contempt for human live : suicide attacks are not limited to the ME .

For Iran : if the spiritual leader of the strongest country in the ME professes publicly his belief in the return of the Mahdi (in his speech,he said :I hope we will be among his followers,both when he is in occultation and when he reappears) and he encourages his followers to die for the Mahdi (he also said:by Allah's favor we will be among the soldiers who will fight alongside Iman Mahdi,and I hope we will be martyred for his cause) this proves that Muslims are not people as us .

And if the same spiritual leader tries to give his country nuclear capacity, it is obvious that ,is he obtains this nuclear capacity, he constitutes a deadly danger for the whole world and that to give Iran nuclear capacity is suicidal.

 

you people are really reaching here, at best, to compare Israeli actions to the terrorists........Sharon did not give orders to massacre people...it states '""no Israeli was directly responsible..."".....bold/italics mine ....if you'd like to point out some pertinent parts of the report, please do....we know Pals were and are directly responsible for murder...key word is directly....

guilty enough?? enough?? it's either guilty or not...allow me to read the rest...that's a long read....

here's the BIG difference--it's not like they planned an operation to take hostages, surround the camps with the intent to somehow get civilians massacred.......this is a compicated operation with many, many factions involved...much communication needed..and you and I know with communication, even between same units, comes errors.....they didn't plan to do this...did they?? where as the terrorists plan to kill.....

and from my initial look at your link, it said only certain people thought the Phalangist would do harm to civilians....looks like it was a sequence of events that led to the massacre.....add miscommunication, and it is very hard to see Sharon as guilty

 

considering the numerous times innocent Israelis civilians were murdered by Pals, I would commend not only all the Israeli soldiers in the Beirut operation, but also the commanders and officers in that no Israeli was directly responsble for any deaths in the camp massacres..that's great discipline and professionalism

 

the more I read, the more this looks like the US-Rwanda involvement....

'''The Phalangists went in today. I do not know what level of combat they are showing. It is difficult to see it because it is dark.''' italics/bold mine

1. a.it takes a lot of time from the start of the massacres to even ascertain what really is going on, as shown by the above quote from an Israeli...
first, they have to notice, hear and or see something wrong is happening [ and they couldn't see well ]
second. they have to communicate that to the sergeant, then the LT, then higher and higher--takes time..
b. only the next morning were they actually able to see atrocities being commited
2. then it takes time for the highers ups to get the infomation, then A. confirm it, then B. plan an action..then C. communicate that action to the various units

if anything, I see the Israelis actually trying to plan to make sure atrocities didn't happen as seen in quotes labeled AA, BB and CC

then we have the quote labelled DD....the Mossad didn't think the phalangists would commit atrocities....

AA...Brigadier-General Yaron spoke with the Phalangists about the places where the terrorists were located in the camps and also warned them not to harm the civilian population italics/bold mine

BB. An order [ --by the Israelis --] was also issued regarding an additional precautionary measure whose purpose was to ascertain the actions of the Phalangist forces during their operation in the camps

CC Following the murder of President-elect Bashir Jemayel, I.D.F. forces entered West Beirut tonight to prevent possible grave occurrences and to ensure quiet.

The entry of the Phalangists into the camps began at about 18.00 on Thursday, 16.9.82 At that time there were armed terrorist forces in the camps.

The subject of the Palestinian population in Lebanon, from among whom the terrorist organizations sprang up and in the midst of whom their military infrastructure was entrenched, came up more than once in meetings between phalangist leaders and Israeli representatives

On 21-26 August, a multi-national force arrived in Beirut, and the evacuation of the terrorists and the Syrian forces began. The evacuation was completed on I September; however, according to information from various sources, the terrorists did not fulfill their obligation to evacuate all their forces from West Beirut and hand their weapons over to the Lebanese army

the Mossad was the organization that actually handled the relations between the Phalangists and Israel, and its representatives maintained close contacts with the Phalangist leadership

DD...When the war began in June 1982, the prevailing opinion among the Mossad agents who had maintained contacts with the Phalangist leadership was that the atrocities and massacres were a thing of the past, and that the Phalangist forces had reached a stage of political and organizational maturity that would ensure that such actions would not repeat themselves.

 

Turning the foxes loose in the hen house without any direct oversight shows neither discipline nor professionalism...

 

He means : tirning the hen's in the foxes'house .

 

check post 1187..looks like the Israelis where doing a lot to prevent what happened....
looks like a witch hunt against Sharon....and reaching a long way to try to implicate the Israelis...spread a lot of myths .I do see an Israeli Batt. commander disregard reports of the atrocities...but then that is not entirely clear...the atrocities last how long ?? 1 night and the morning the next day?? no time at all to react!! ....then we go to post 1187

 

If that was true, then it would have been Phalangist bodies that were carried out. That was not the case.

 

read the report...

They could not see in the night or in the day.

Later on in the report

Why would a brigadier-general set up lookout posts that could not, under any circumstances, accomplish their primary task of "looking out"?

Finish the passage...

He knew the Phalangists' SOP, but never took steps to ensure that the Phalangists obeyed his directive.

Except no measures were taken to ensure that the order issued was carried out.

Seems that these 5 passages are all quotes cherry-picked from the report and then strung together so that they seemed to confirm to your beliefs. C'mon Bronk, I thought you were better than that.

For example...The first sentence is actually

The second sentence...

Need I go on???



Oops...Overloaded the quotes....To be continued

 

That was a lot of CYA...As the commission noted.

 

ha--they don't give importance to pro-Israeli statements, but take anti-Israelis statements....I give not 1, not 2, but 3 examples of how the Israelis wanted to prevent a massacre, and you say no go??

the Holocaust was one of the most monumental and powerful events in Israeli-Jewish history, if not world history.....it can't and never will be forgotten by the Israelis-Jews......not for a thousand years and more..........
millions of civilians murdered ! like cattle....
it has been ingrained and implanted into the souls, beings and minds of not only the individuals, but also the country of Israel itself
I would think, out of all people in the world, it would be very difficult for any Israeli-Jew to knowingly be a part of something like these massacres...the murder of civilians..--it is in direct opposition to what the Holocaust has embedded in their whole beings!! it would tear their hearts out.....possible yes, probable-no..

 

Whatever man, whatever...

The commission said no go...

Observation posts sited so that they could not observe.
Orders not enforced.
A whole mess of CYA.

Can't forget your bunch of cherry-picked sentences strung together to give the appearance of supporting your position.

Looks like your went 0 for 4, not 0 for 3...

 

I take it that you have not read up on Irgun and Haganah...

Some Jewish persons were quite capable of committing massacres and terrorist bombings. Especially in the immediate years following the Holocaust.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

Does that include their firing on US Marines and probing our lines. I wish we were less disciplined and we could have turned their Machiavellian games into a bloody lesson in how allies are supposed to act.

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/02/03/world/a-marine-pistol-drawn-stops-3-israeli-tanks.html

First the Israelis tried to deny the incident, then blamed it on Marine Corps error, then on Captain Johnson being drunk. Captain Johnson was a well known teetotaler, so that didn't fly. The problem is it was the culmination of a number of incidents. Theories as to what they hoped to achieve are varied, but they did overplay their hand.

"While the local Arab radio stations were telling and retelling the story of the American who stopped the three Israeli tanks singlehandedly, the Israeli press was accusing Captain Johnson of having liquor on his breath and being drunk. Worse, they called the whole affair a misunderstanding on the part of the Marines. Confronted by evidence, among other things, that Johnson was a teetotaler, the Israelis quickly toned down, and finally stopped such comments when they saw they were not going to be given credence."

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AMH/XX/MidEast/Lebanon-1982-1984/USMC-Lebanon82/USMC-Lebanon82-4.html

Read this article for more info:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/p-neff.html

Note that again it was believed that it was Sharon playing Machiavellian games.

 

That's why 10% of the Israeli civilian population took to the streets in protest. Israel does have a free press and many of their journalists decried what occurred.

 

The camps were swarming with terrorists

 

Yes, they were, once the Israelis let the Phalangists in. They should have kept those terrorists away from refugees, all the women, children and old people.