If Germany took Iceland

Sorry Chrome, it is on (well, almost) the Great Circle navigation route from Newfoundland to the British Isles. That is, if you forget about a plane map and use a globe, and stretch a piece of string from say JFK airport to London-Heathrow (those were the references I had closest to the surface of my brain but good enough for our purpose), the line will be somewhat midway between Iceland and the Azores.



This has naturally nothing to do with Kola peninsula. Of course this is closer to the Bardufoss, Kirkenes, etc Luftwaffe bases.

As you can see, Iceland is far away from North America but excellently located for the North Atlantic shipping route. Or for anti-UBoot work, which is the reason the Allies got there in the first place. A German occupation would invite swift reaction, don't you think?

 

As Iceland was under the control of DENMARK (Not Norway) it could not be attacked prior to April 1940 without making WW2 "hot"

The Wermacht struggled land enough forces in Nthn Norway, any diversion to Iceland would be at the expense of Narvik or Tronheim.

The RN decimated both the Kriegsmarine & its Merchant fleet in Norway so after the capture of Norway (About May 1940) they had little to ship men in.

By May 1940 British troops were in place, plus by July 1940 2 Canadian Brigades (4 & 5 Bdes, 2 Cdn Div) wre there as well.

In (about) May 1940, the United States guaranteed the freedom of the Republic of Iceland.

It was seen as a vital poaition to base Aircraft (& ships) to defend the Atlantic convoy, any diversion to gain the safety of its air cover was of more benefit than taking the shortest route.

Ju 52's, range with Auxilary tanks, 1300km, could not be used.

About the weather, In summer its beautiful, in Winter, execrable.

And of course the German on Crete ate rocks, but being only 200 miles from a supply port could be resupplied with ease.

At least have your arguement ready before going trolling for replies.

 

This thread is silly.

The Germans could never have supported a force on Iceland.

If they were to use Iceland as a base against convoys it would mean a massive infrastructure. Look at the work they did to make U-boat pens in Norway. Runways for aircraft. Oil supplies to Iceland? RN RAF?? The Germans would have to shift their production from land based equipment to sea.

Supporting the massive forces in Norway was difficult enough. Even with the short distance from Nothern Germany to Norway. The real point is that Norway (and Certainly Iceland) did not have the railsystem of continental europe. Meaning that it is custom to use boats to get the supplies to the destination.

In occupying Norway Herr Hitler spent as much as 380,000 men. A lot of Flak lads among them. Why?
Beufighters and Mossie wrecked havoc on the costal convoys.

To ease the supply strains the Germans had to rob the Norwegians for foodstuffs. Malnutrition was order of the day. My nan can give you a recipy for making sour bread from the bark of beech.

Hitler got it right with invading Norway. A stepping stone into the North Atlantic, still close to Germany.

And yes the Germans could have knocked the Azores, Iceland and Greenland, but never maintained them.

The germans used warships to get soldiers on Norwegian soil during the attack on 9th April 1940. Anyone suggesting that the reserve fleet should cross thousands of miles of ocean, dominated by the Home Fleet, supplying a volcanic rock is out of their minds.

 

Sorry Za, it is 1200-1500 miles north of the shipping lanes. Distance between London & Reykjavik is 1170 miles, depending on route, anywhere from 1000 to 1500 or so miles south of shipping lanes.
http://www.wcrl.ars.usda.gov/cec/java/capitals.htm

"Iceland) did not have the railsystem of continental europe. Meaning that it is custom to use boats to get the supplies to the destination."

Neither did northern Norway where the allied shipping losses occurred.


"should cross thousands of miles of ocean, dominated by the Home Fleet,"


Actually 7-800 miles, of non British dominated waters.


"Ju 52's, range with Auxilary tanks, 1300km, could not be used."

Actually yes they could.

 

Chrome, did you look at my map? The distance from Iceland to the great circle I drafted is a lot shorter than that straight Lon.-Reyk. distance you quote, and certainly about 1/3 of that 1200-1500 miles you say and which I can't figure where you got from.

Of course it might be argued that with a captured Iceland traffic to UK would be rerouted going through a longer route south, closer to the Azores. Unless you capture those as well , in which case going through the historical Dakar.

In any case, basing planes in Iceland to bomb the US is a bit unfeasable, as per your website above the distance between Iceland and Washington is 4500km or 2800 miles. Which bombers will be able to do that and return?

Now in complement to what others have said:

Anyway, "those 7-800 miles of non British dominated waters" are the ones I said that would get a carrier group as a present. IIRC the North Western Atlantic used to be a Royal Navy lake, and the few Kriegsmarine that ventured there used to get a ticket to see King Neptune a close range. How many Bismarck style raids did we se and how did they en? Those were British dominated waters, have no doubt about it.

And about Ju52 ranges, you have to consider two things: first, the longer the range, the lesser the payload. Bergen-Keflavik would be within theoretical range, but how much load could be carried? Second, unless you want to create a huge depot of Ju52 in Iceland, you have to count on the birds fuel capacity to take them there and BACK!, so this seems to rule out the Ju52 and you have to find a longer legged (and with adequate payload at long range) plane. Which one and in how many numbers available?

 

"If Germany wanted to do this from late May 1940 on they would be faced with British or US occupying forces on Iceland. Starting in May,"

Didn't say May 1940, said April. C'mon!

Yes I looked at the map, not 1/3rd as you suggest. London to Reykjavik is 1170, 1/3rd of 1000 is 333 miles, waaay off. Even 1/3rd of 1500 is 500 miles, still waaay off. Dublin to Reykjavik is 1998 kilometers. 1492 according to this site 927 miles! 865 miles to Belfast, north Ireland.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distances.html?n=211


"those 7-800 miles of non British dominated waters"

Is that why the British almost never approached the Norwegian coast? Hmm, how did they dominate the water they almost never went into??


"you have to count on the birds fuel capacity to take them there and BACK!, so this seems to rule out the Ju52"


Nope, refuel at Iceland, then fly back. Distance to Trondheim 978, but east coast of Iceland much closer.

http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/Iceland/Myvata.html

This is north Iceland, the lack of trees makes it ideal for makeshift airstrips.

 

Chrome, you are again getting close to the "It is! 'Tis not!" phase, and that's unpleasant.

Look again at the map, I'm not saying distances from Iceland to the end of the route, London, Dublin, Belfast, Sligo, whatever, I am saying from Iceland to the nearest point of the route which is the top stretch of the bow in my map. Much closer than your thousands.

Norwegian coast? No problem, there was large activity in light forces, Motor Torpedo Boasts, Motor Gun Boats, Schnellboot, etc. Why risk capital ships for show when you need use only light forces to attack coastal traffic? Yes, the RN was very present along the entire Atlantic coast with - as the name implies - coastal forces. Did you know the RN was bringing in ball bearings from Sweden on fast boats? Under the KM's noses? Op. Bridport, IIRC.

Refuel in Iceland? All right, but you have to have the avgas there in the first place. As I foresee difficulties with this, perhaps it would be best if the planes carried fuel for there and back.

Building airfields in Iceland? Maybe, but your first pic is deceptively flat, the ground is quite broken up and level differences using that road on the right as a reference might be 3-5 from troughs to tops. If you are going to build a runway in that place you need to carry large (I mean large, remember I am in the construction business) construction plant to crush rock and move it about to build say a 800m x 40m strip. For a strip there I'd figure you would need to move say 96,000 m3 (250,000 tons) of lava. A Caterpillar D7 weighs 15 tons (and that's small for the task), you'll need several, plus scrapers, graders, etc. Be prepared to ship in several heavy machines, plus lots of diesel fuel as they are thirsty. Bear in mind that when you invade it's most likely the US won't allow any more fuel imports, so you'll have to bring in diesel, avgas and motor gas too in quantities.

Trees are always the least of your problems, big rocks underneath are, and believe me, I wouldn't want to build on a nightmare lava field like that pic unless I would be given plenty of time and equipment.

 

Chrome

Look at the German losses in shipping along the Norwegian coast.

Catalinas Mossies and MTB's of the RN dominated the Norwegian coast. Why else did the coastal shipping only travel by night.

The Allied shipping lost, has nothing to do about the lack of railsystem. It has everything to do about the tonnage the GERMANS lost. It would have been the same all over again in Iceland.

 

The whole subject is a what if. What if the Brits had not sent troops to Iceland? The concept is what would have happened if Germany had made it possible for them to invade Iceland. The only practical way to do so, would have been to attack it before anyone else had established troops there. With the Germans not having an effective surface naval force, they would have to use the Ju 52s to land troops in a surprise raid. It would be a one way trip, with the Germans having to find a way to resupply once it was secured. The only way to get the fuel supplies there, would be for them to do as the Japanes had and produce subs capable of carrying fuel and cargo. Existing subs could be converted, but it would not be beyond the Germans to build supply subs.

Once the situation ws secured, they could maintain the Luftwaffe fighters with a combination of supply subs and aircraft. If the Germans also had the whereforall to then defeat Britain, it would take a huge effort with aircraft carriers for the Allies to defeat them.

My thought that if all this had happened, then the Allies probably would have put their efforts towards Africa. then once established, move up from the south until Germany was defeated. This did not happen and with the German military mentality, never would have. They were not capable of planning that type of force projection.

The planning for the conquest of the British Isles and Iceland would have needed to start 5 years ahead of the actual battles. Despite all the means that the Germans used to get around the restrictions from WWI, they really did not plan their battles that far ahead.

 

Norway was secured April 10, Iceland op goes April 20. Few subs, air para drop on airfield, & Ocean liner, ( as was prepared in real war ), beating Brits by 20 days. Couple heavy units based on availability.They were after all, right there in Norway. & few U-boats might drop crews on predetermined locations on east coast to set up airstrips. & 1-2 ships to Bay of Hunafloi, U-boats guarding entrance.

Norway op not affected, ships prepared in advance should Norway fall.


"Look again at the map, I'm not saying distances from Iceland to the end of the route, London, Dublin, Belfast, Sligo, whatever, I am saying from Iceland to the nearest point of the route which is the top stretch of the bow in my map. Much closer than your thousands."


Looked at the map, very close to 1000, ( & for clarification, I did not state "thousands" ), Not near your calculations. North of Ireland would be closer to Iceland than your line. Have a look at the map here, make a line from Iceland to bottom of England, ( which is where ships went, & you'll see it is farther than the 865 to Belfast ). & why would the convoys go into the center of Ireland that your line shows? Canada is lower than Ireland in Latitude, so naturally the line would go under Ireland, as opposed to into it.

http://www.goobz.net/map/europe.htm#


As for weather, here is the view of a bike enthusiast who rode round the island.

The riding and weather along the north coast has been incredible -- 70ﮠand sunny with light or favorable winds.

He also mentioned bad weather did occur, but didn't usually last long. & beef farming seemed the biggest occupation. Germans would likely eat beef with the fish.

[ 27. October 2006, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: chromeboomerang ]

 

"If you are going to build a runway in that place you need to carry large (I mean large, remember I am in the construction business) construction plant to crush rock and move it about to build say a 800m x 40m strip. For a strip there I'd figure you would need to move say 96,000 m3 (250,000 tons) of lava. A Caterpillar D7 weighs 15 tons (and that's small for the task), you'll need several, plus scrapers, graders, etc. Be prepared to ship in several heavy machines,"

Or as was done in Russia & west front late war,& nearly every theater of the war. find a smooth flat place & avoid all that. Remember, survey teams were sent in 38. Did you notice the flat smooth garden in the photo?

JU 52. http://www.eagle19.freeserve.co.uk/aircraft.htm
It was also capable of landing on uneven or unpaved airstrips and its slow landing speed allowed it to land on short improvised runways.


"Look at the German losses in shipping along the Norwegian coast.

Catalinas Mossies and MTB's of the RN dominated the Norwegian coast. Why else did the coastal shipping only travel by night."


Look at where these occurred, south Norwegian waters. I have a book written by a Norwegian saboteur, that's where these events ocurred, not up in northern half of Norway, Trondheim etc which is the route & waters we are discussing.

 

Since this is a "what-if" I'll narrate what I propose happens to the Germans:

The operation calls for a battalion of paratroopers and a battalion of infantry to occupy the island. Additional headquarters, engineering, supply, and other troops are sent along. A battery of 10.5cm field guns and two sections of 3.7cm AT guns are included.
Outside of some horses and motorcycles the unit is without transport.
The air unit flys out of Norway in three groups of approxmately 20 Ju 52 each. These are maxed on fuel and have auxiliary tanks. The pilots are instructed to land where they can as the round trip is impractical (it is definitely more than 800 miles).
The liner leaves Bremen on the 15th with the balance of the force. A single destroyer is provided as escort. This is all the KM can scrape up, particularly after the Narvik disaster just 2 days prior. Due to the short legs of the destroyer both steam at 12 knots for Iceland.
The transports enroute fly near enough to the cruiser Dosetshire to be detected on her Type 79 air search radar. The Furious is told of the detection and launches 6 Skuas to intercept. The first group is soon intercepted and loses 8 transports before the British break off their attacks. The remaining 12 continue on but, 4 are now badly off course having become lost and scattered in the melee.
The second and third groups suffer somewhat lighter casualties but they too have several transports that are seperated and now on their own.
The Ju 52s now begin to arrive over Iceland. About half the original force makes the drop. Of the transports some manage to land in fields or other locations safely; the rest suffer damage or crash on landing leaving less than 10 flyable aircraft out of the original 30.
The liner with her escort runs into the Reknown and several RN destroyers and both the liner and escort are sunk on the 15th as the RN is still at sea and in the process of returning to Scapa Flow.
The half battalion of paras on Iceland are instructed to dig in and await reinforcement. The Luftwaffe cannot spare any additional transports as these are now needed for the invasion of France. A solitary flying boat or two makes a run to deliver a small amount of critically needed supplies while the island is scoured for fuel to get the few operational Ju 52 off the ground.
Admiral Räder very reluctantly provides several U-boats to resupply the tiny garrison on Iceland. This gives the British almost a month of respite from attacks in the Atlantic as a result.
Due to the invasion of France, the British have to put off a planned operation to retake Iceland in early May. The small German garrison lacks the capacity to build a runway, settling for a semi-improved strip that might land a light aircraft occasionally. It is certainly not suitable for a massive airlift. The lack of avgas on Iceland makes aerial resupply largely impossible. The occasional U-boat deilvers a few supplies. But, the garrison is largely cut off.
The best the British can temporarily do is put a engineer battalion on the Faroe Islands along with a garrison. These troops soon have an airfield up and running. The Germans on Iceland now are being occasionally bombed and strafed by Bomber Command and Coastal Command aircraft along with daily survellance. U-Boats are reluctant to pull in except at night and will rarely stay long for fear of being attacked.
By July 1940 the US is now patrolling off Iceland too. U-boat visits are becoming rare. Air supply is also an unusual occurance as many flights are being intercepted by beaufighters flying out of the Shetlands and Faroes.
In late September the British show up with a battlegroup including a battleship, several cruisers and destroyers along with a carrier. They proceed to land from 8 large transports a reinforced infantry brigade including a squadron of valentine tanks.
Within days the German garrison is reduced to reminants holding out in various remote locations. These few remaining hold outs surrender within a couple of weeks. Iceland is no longer in German hands.

 

"The small German garrison lacks the capacity to build a runway,"

One did exist at Reykjavik. & odds of intercepting Ocean liner small, as British ships headed south & not near Trondheim. U-tankers would have fuel supply problem for aircraft largely tackled.


"They proceed to land from 8 large transports"

Did Lst's have the range? to go to Iceland? If not these transports would have to run into Reykjavik harbor & be torpedoed on the way in, or attacked by a/c before getting near, not to mention ground troops in the harbor to deal with & whatever large guns the Germans would have no doubt carried on the liner & emplaced at the harbor entrance.

 

If an airstrip did exist, then it must have been truly minimal. Both Morison (History of United States Naval Operations in World War II vol I, The Battle of the Atlantic) and Building the Navy's Bases in World War II, vol I and II state that when the US military (Marines and Navy initially) took over Iceland they had to build both bases and airfields from scratch.
If, indeed, this is the case as seems likely then a battalion or two of infantry with nothing but hand tools is certainly not going to build an airfield any time soon after landing, if at all.
As for U-boat resupply, you might note that no transport type boats were available in April 1940 so either Type VII or XI boats, both of which are very unsuited for this work, would have to be used.

As for British landings, the do not need LSTs. They could have brought their troops in large transport ships and used LCAs to land the initial waves of infantry. The cruisers, destroyers and battleships would have provided fire support. Once a harbor was secured the heavy equipment could be landed.
Since such an operation against such a small and poorly equipped German force would have not taken that long there is little threat from U-boats in the first few days. If the Germans did have some field artillery or other small guns ashore they would have been quickly silenced by naval gunfire in any case just as virtually happened in every case of amphibious assault by the Allies throughout WW 2.
As for interception, given a 5 to 7 day at sea time for the liner, and British coastal command reconnissance of the period it is very unlikely it would have escaped notice. If anything, escaping notice and slipping through is definitely the exception not the rule at the time for German surface ships.
Since the British also would have had the ability to easily conduct surveillance and reconnissance of Iceland from the Shetlands and Faroes it is also very unlikely that the Germans could have managed much in the way of surprises for their landing force.

On the whole, I think the burden of proof that the Germans could take and hold Iceland falls with those holding that such an operation could be successful not with the Allied responses. Without a far more detailed and convencing arguement I would have to say that so far such proof has not been forthcoming.

 

"By July 1940 the US is now patrolling off Iceland too. U-boat visits are becoming rare. Air supply is also an unusual occurance as many flights are being intercepted by beaufighters flying out of the Shetlands and Faroes."


Distance is too great. They would not catch aircraft flying out of Trondheim area. & radar doen't go that far anyway, so detection would be very rare occurrance.

As for US, doubtful & improbable they would go to war with Germany over Iceland, they didn't over France or Norway. 1940 the US war very much of the let's stay out of it mentality.


"If the Germans did have some field artillery or other small guns ashore they would have been quickly silenced by naval gunfire in any case just as virtually happened in every case of amphibious assault by the Allies throughout WW 2."

Only if they could get close enough & weren't sunk on the way in. Remember how many cruisers went down at Crete, similiar fate would await British ships as they approached Iceland.


"As for interception, given a 5 to 7 day at sea time for the liner, and British coastal command reconnissance of the period it is very unlikely it would have escaped notice."


Entirely innacurate, as Atlantis & other German ships passed through unmolested & undetected. AS did Admiral Hipper & Orion. Altmark made it through from Atlantic to Norway before German occupation, but during war.

After the scuttling of the Admiral Graf Spee , the Altmark returns home with over 300 POWs. In Norwegian waters,

5 February 1941: Scharnhorst and Gneisenau enter the Atlantic through the Denmark Strait, and refuel from tanker Schlettstadt some 150 miles south of Cape Farewell.

http://www.warsailors.com/raidervictims/orion.html Apr. 6-1940 under the command of Kurt Weyher and ended up right in the middle of the battle for Norway with warships going to and fro in every direction in the North Sea (Orion was disguised as the Dutch Beemsterdijk at the time, but once passed the Arctic Circle she became the Russian Soviet). She returned to Germany in Aug.-1941 after having captured 8 Allied ships, as well as 2 together with Komet. She had proven to be unsuited as an auxiliary cruiser and was not sent out again.

That's 2 trips through, one out, one back in.


"The fact is lots of
German vessels were able to slip through this patrol via the Denmark strait
or around the northern coast of Iceland, as at some points there were no
British ships there patrolling!"

[ 28. October 2006, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: chromeboomerang ]

 

Reykjavík Airport. There were actually 2 airstrips. 1st flight 1919. Make that 3, "therefore they had to fly empty to a nearby field at Korpulfsstadir to pick up passengers and cargo."


[edit] History
The first flight from the airport area was September 3, 1919 with the take off of an Avro 504, the first aeroplane in Iceland [1]. Until 1937 there were experiments with airline operations in Vatnsmýri but with the foundation of Iceland's first airline, Flugfélag Íslands in Akureyri in 1938, operations began in the area and in March 1940 scheduled flights started taking off when Flugfélag Íslands moved its hub from Akureyri to Reykjavík.

As for food & horses..
http://www.bondi.is/landbunadur/wgbi.nsf/key2/icelandic_agriculture

Iceland is primarily a food-producing country. For centuries, the country's basic industries have been agriculture, fishing and fish processing.and Iceland is self-sufficient in the production of meat, dairy products, eggs and to a large extent also in the production of certain vegetables.

By 1940, 32% of the employable population worked in agriculture.

The Icelandic horse is rather small, its height usually being about 140 cm. It is sturdy and hardworking and has greater endurance than its foreign cousins.

As in Russia, the horse would be put to work making up for some of the lack of motorized transport.

I'm sure the free history lesson was absolutely fascinating.

 

Chromeboomerang, I gave you the best possible estimate that can be based on a photo same as I would give one of my clients, and you reply with a garden? I feel professionally insulted.

It's impossible to have a serious conversation if you play the eel and try to squeeze through every crack every time. Grow up and then show up. I'm not going to waste my time playing games here. Fare well.

 

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/70782/photo3.html

https://www.midcoast.com/~nlund/iceland.html

I also mentioned the fact that dirtrunways were used in every theater of the war. Grow up & show up? is that considered serious intellectual chat?

The equipment you mentioned was not used with frequency in makeshift runways. Let's be serious shall we? The farmers who cleared that field & made it flat certainly didn't have all that equipment then did they? & the point of the photo was to show large flat treeless areas, I'm sure there are thousands more that didn't have any craters. Do I have to post 50 more photos? C'mon.


& what you are talking about is commercial construction where an inspector comes out with his tape measure & perhaps a sextant to make sure it's up to spec & all that. Totally different activity to scratching out an airstrip during wartime. It just has to be work well enough to have a/c land without breaking landing gear etc. That's it. Your comparison is largely apples & oranges.


Couple other thoughts, Orion could be used to place mines outside Reykjavik harbor, & there would be fuel at the 3 airstrips, at least at Reykjavik airport, have to have some fuel on hand, how else would the Icelanders get their planes up?


& availability of British warships also has to be considered. The British navy was very busy & scattered about the globe in North Africa, Gibralter, Malta, Singapore, convoys duties across atlantic, chasing Graf Spee or other raiders, & home defense & BOB.

Would they have spare ships? likely need a carrier to deal with Reykjavik airport.

Not taking the position that they didn't, rather just posing the question.

[ 28. October 2006, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: chromeboomerang ]

 

Distance data. Reykjavik to trondheim is 978 miles, subtract 305, you 673 miles to east coast. Bergen 911 miles, minus 305, one gets 606 miles. Give or take a few, not exact,( But Reykjavik is very close to western end of Iceland ), well there it is.

The Geography of Iceland
Iceland is one of the largest islands in the North Atlantic, lies between latitude 63°24´N and 66°33´N and between longitude 13°30´W and 24°32´W. Iceland has a total area of 103.000 sq km, or 39.756 sq. miles. From north to south the greatest distance is about 300 km or 185 miles, from west to east about 500 km or 305 miles.

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/70782/photo3.html

[ 28. October 2006, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: chromeboomerang ]