Is the V-22 Osprey worth it?

ty LWD.....interesting they would station 10 Spec Ops 22s in Japan while there are USMC 22s in Oki......are they just forward based for quicker deployment to a crisis in Asia??

 

Well they did say:

That area isn't lacking in potential natural disasters between earthquakes, volcanoes, sunami, and typhoons. Also Japan is going to be buying some so there maybe some joint aspects to this as well.

 

They're probably both there for quicker deployment to where they would likely be needed for whatever they might be tasked to do. Although they're versions of the same aircraft, they have distinctly different missions, special ops for the Air Force and basic transport for the Marines, although they might be used for some of the same tasks such as CSAR. The V-22 has almost totally replaced the CH-46; also at least one CH-53D squadron (HMR/VMM-363).

 

Probably, the Airforce looking for additional missions in order to justify the purchase of additional Ospreys. In addition to the Ospreys based at Futenma there is always at least one MEU operating in the area. The MEU's respond to disasters on a regular basis, they operate Ospreys (and formerly CH-46's) they have CH-53E's the heaviest lift helicopter operated by western nations, UH-1Y's, Navy SH-60's with the necessary support and maintenance facilities. The sailors and Marines on the MEU have a wide variety of skill sets, Navy Doctors and Hospital Corpsmen, engineers, hospital facilities, water distillation capabilities, LCAC's and LCU's for delivery of bulk materials, motor transportation assets, dump trucks, bulldozers, backhoes, wreckers, communication facilities, electrical power generation capabilities. Here are a select few of the times they've been utilized in this manner in the region over the last several years for tsunami's, earthquakes, typhoons, nuclear plan meltdowns, whatever. (btw, the Ospreys being used in Nepal flew in from Japan)

01/14/2005-ABOARD USS BONHOMME RICHARD, At Sea (NNS) -- Flying numerous sorties into the tsunami stricken island of Sumatra Jan. 13, the multipurpose amphibious assault ship USS Bonhomme Richard (BHR) (LHD 6) and 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) delivered more than 98,000 pounds of disaster relief aid to hard hit areas throughout the island.

Bonhomme Richard is deployed to the Indian Ocean to assist in Operation Unified Assistance, providing humanitarian relief to victims of the tsunami that ravaged Southern Asia Dec. 26.

"We were able to cover a wide expanse of area both coastal and deep inland," said BHR Commanding Officer Capt. J. Scott Jones. "Using the ship's helicopter capability, we have not only been able to deliver disaster relief ashore, but we have also been able resupply ourselves and shuttle experienced disaster relief elements to areas in the country where they are needed the most."

04/01/2011-The 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit responded to Northern Japan from Malaysia and Indonesia, where the unit was conducting Theater Security Cooperation exercises. The 31st MEU delivered relief supplies to five cities, one island and one Japanese ship. More than 164,000 pounds of food and relief supplies were delivered, along with thousands of gallons of water. Elements of the 31st MEU, including Combat Logistics Battalion 31, 2nd Battalion 5th Marines went ashore on Oshima Island to deliver critical supplies and assist in debris removal.

10/23/2010-USS ESSEX, off the coast of the Republic of the Philippines - Marines and Sailors with the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit and Amphibious Squadron 11 responded to the call of the government of the Philippines to help thousands of citizens affected by Super Typhoon Juan (international name Megi) Oct 21 - 23.

11/20/2013-PHILIPPINES, Nov. 20, 2013 – About 900 Marines with the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit have arrived in the Philippines, near Tacloban.
The Marines were transported to the Philippines from Okinawa aboard two Navy amphibious ships, the USS Germantown and USS Ashland. About 100 additional 31st MEU Marines were scheduled to fly to the region.
Navy Cmdr. William Marks, 7th Fleet spokesperson, provided an update on Operation Damayan, the U.S. and international effort to provide relief to people impacted by Super Typhoon Haiyan.

 

yes, Price, I was thinking about the AF 22s....sounds like they have at least 3 dozen with more to follow...to add to your point, I remember when Scott OGrady was rescued by the Marines....the AF Spec Ops were kind of pissed that the USMC got him.... but, I guess if you are shot down too far from the sea where the USMC could have forces ready, the AF would need some 22s for search and rescue....but 4 dozen??

 

It's only three operational squadrons, plus test and training units and probably a few spare aircraft.

I'm reminded of our A-10 discussion and the Air Force's emphasis on things like the F-35, new bomber, and new ICBM. Apparently they can find room in their priority list for the V-22. No doubt part of it is wanting a CSAR capability wherever they operate, but they've also done a lot of special operations support in Afghanistan. Of course spec ops is "sexy" these days.

Ironically it was also the Kearsarge that rescued the F-15E pilot in Libya, using a Marine V-22, although there were also a couple of CH-53s involved. Would like to know more about that operation.

 

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/04/22/welsh-osprey-combat-search-and-rescue/26176253/

thanks Carronade...says here the AF has 67 Pavehawks, but will replace them with 112 next generation Hawks....plus the Ospreys....how many AF pilots do they figure will need rescuing?? Spec Ops is usually done with the Army or Marines....and, as we see the USMC rescuing AF pilots, I see this as more ammo for Price's opinion

http://defensetech.org/2013/10/18/will-the-army-ever-buy-the-v-22-osprey/

short article on US Army and the Osprey...I would think the Night Stalkers would need it....they are the premier Spec Ops transporters

 

Good links Bronk. Did some further searching on the V-280 mentioned in the second article.

The aircraft the Army is looking into the V-280 Valor looks like it has a lot of potential.It looks like a UH-60 Blackhawk body with a wing and tilt rotars in place of the rotors. I'd bet the "Night Stalkers" could make good use of them.

It's my understanding that most of what the Air Force calls "Special Ops", is support for the Special Operations Forces in Afghanistan consisting of CSAR and logistical support (the logistical support mainly by heavier fixed wing aircraft). Most tactical missions are flown by inhouse US Army rotary wing aviation assets.

DoD has tried to kill the program numerous times, one of the last in 2010. April 2011 Forbes article-"Last November, the two chairmen of the president’s bipartisan deficit commission included early termination of V-22 production in their list of suggested savings from the military budget, citing the program’s “troubled history” and maintenance issues. Apparently the staffers who put together the recommendations didn’t realize that the Osprey has become by far the safest rotorcraft in the Marine Corps air fleet, suffering no fatal accidents in over a decade despite prolonged deployments to Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti and other places. The only fatal accident to occur recently was the loss of an Air Force V-22 during a combat mission in Afghanistan, and in that mishap 16 of the 20 personnel on board survived a high-speed collision with the ground despite the fact that the V-22 flipped over, due to a host of survivability features built into the aircraft. The staffers probably also didn’t realize that for all its technological sophistication, the V-22 is actually the cheapest rotorcraft that the Marines operate when measured in terms of the cost per seat mile."

emphasis mine

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/marine-dead-aircraft-makes-hard-landing-training/story?id=31112379

Osprey makes hard landing.....we did amtrac training here at an old, unused WW2 airfield...from the pics in the article, looks like the same field....I do have pics of this field when we were there ......yes, I said amtrac training...even though we were Barracks Marines, we did some 0311 training, even if we weren't 0311s ....I'm guessing they were doing training since it's not a Hawaiian based unit or Osprey
I ''think'' a pic of this airfield in WW2 is in the book 'One Damned Island After Another'....if you'd like, I can try to find my pics and post them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r-yehhqlYM

Marine spokesman tells of crash....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3085795/One-Marine-killed-21-hospitalized-V-22-Osprey-suffers-hard-landing-training-exercise-Hawaii.html

Daily Mail has the post crash pics and video before crash...and it says they were training, of course.....
plus there was the USMC chopper crash in Nepal.....

I don't think we had one crash or hard landing,etc in 6 months in the Med....in fact, they praised the chopper unit for it's reliability....I think it was HMM261.....however, choppers seem a lot more unstable than airplanes with the transitioning from flight to landing....

 

I'm sure the Osprey is also assigned to the MEU. The story stated the Marines were from the 15th MEU out of Camp Pendleton, and the Osprey out of MCAS Miramar. Camp Pendleton has the bulk of the 1st Marine Division, Miramar has the bulk of it's matched Airwing (the 3d MAW). Just like Camp Lejeune has the 2d MarDiv and MCAS Cherry Point the bulk of it's mated 2d MAW.
You've been on a MEU before haven't you? Always training.

If you train realistically you will have deaths. It is tragic, but it's the price paid to have Marines and sailors sitting off shore in the world's trouble spots ready to go from peace to war at a moments notice. This MEU (the 15th) was the one sent into Somalia in 1992, and managed to establish a relatively secure environment for UN humanitarian relief operations. The MEU had too much ass for General Mohamed Farrah Aidid, to challenge them so he maintained a low profile. It was after the MEU left that the whole Blackhawk Down thing happened. The MEU has tanks, LAV's, artillery, AAV's, CAS and never underestimate the psychological benefit of naval ships lying offshore. They were providing humanitarian relief in East Timor when they were ordered to Afghanistan in 2001, and were the first conventional ground forces in country after making a 400 mile amphibious assault into the land locked country. In 2003 they were sent in for the initial invasion of Iraq under British operational control and served alongside 3 Commando Brigade Royal Marines. Then they were deployed to An Nasiriyah to relive Task Force Tarawa and participated in the rescue of Jessica Lynch. In 2005, they were providing diaster relief to Tsunami victims in Sumatra, Sri Lanka then were pulled away and inserted into Babil Province, Iraq for 30 days to cover a gap in the rotation of US Army units there. They were inserted into Iraq twice more in Sep 2006 and Feb 2007 to assist in combat operations. My older son was in Iraq with the I MEF during this time frame and I suspect this is the MEU he always talks about, he says it was a thing of beauty. I MEF's assets were under MNF-Iraq's control. They were continually harrassed by attacks and fire from a town in the Sunni Triangle where insurgents were clustering. MNF-I would allow the return of fire but not allow an all out attack on the town to clear the insurgents because the manpower was required to support operations in Fallujah, Ramadi, Baghdadi and Haditha. He said, a MEU came in with a small infantry force and a CAAT team and hung around this town trying to entice the insurgents to attack them. When the insurgents finally attacked, the MEU responded with overwhelming force the rest of the GCE, the entire battaliuon, mounted in AAV's, supported by LAV's, tanks, artillery and Cobra's, they went in and annihilated the enemy fighters. Then left. The MEU could do this because they didn't fall under MNF-I control. He said, they never took another round from that town during the rest of his deployment.

I was in a CH-46 flying off the USS Peleilu that made a hard water landing during a training exercise, scary but, sheet happens. I was participating in a Regimental sized exercise in 1981, we were on the LPH-9 USS Guam and during flight deck operations we had a CH-53 hit a second 53, they crashed and hit a UH-1, several people killed and a bunch injured. When my older son was deployed with the 22d MEU in 2012, they had an Osprey crash during exercise African Lion in Morocco. He was already on the ground when it crashed not far from where his unit was. He has a picture, looks like a giant lawn dart, it didn't burn but two Marines were killed. Also in 2012, when the younger son was working up to go back to Afghanistan, an AH-1 "Whiskey" and a UH-1 collided in mid-air, they were flying at night with NVG's, nap of the earth, one zigged and the other zagged, all 7 Marines aboard were killed.

 

Look's like an Air Force Osprey (along with US Army Blackhawk's) was involved in the Delta raid into Syria, that killed ISIS leader Abu Sayyaf.

 

One went down in Hawaii killing 1 Marine over the weekend.

 

roger that...that's what the links are about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va6Bds9KWfU

here's a 22 landing on ship....just like the 46s and 53s, they come in at an angle, rotate, and land very close to the edge!!! it's not like an airfield at all..not much room....great flying if you ask me...great feeling landing on ship with much noise and small landing area.......I'm not surprised at all Price, with the collisions, crashes, etc....they do well to keep them low, though
yes, it says the Ospreys have been working with Delta Force in Syria and Iraq....wow.....the raid area appears to be around 100 miles from the border....Ospreys can cover that very fast...I don't see why they give out this information on what transport was used....

 

What other aircraft could carry a dome that can cover a whole town (Springfield)?
The Simpsons movie:
http://www.impdb.org/index.php?title=The_Simpsons_Movie

Surprised the EPA has so many of them.

 

It is a bit ironic to have an accident while we're having this conversation, but as Price says, it's going to happen occasionally, in military training or operations or for that matter in any aspect of life.

bronk7, thanks for the video. It appears that the Osprey is landing on the aft part of the flight deck. IIRC from my days on the Saipan, the port bridge wing on the island was only 9 feet off the centerline, and it looks like the LHDs are about the same (although the island is lower). Does anyone know if Ospreys can use the landing spots alongside the island? I know CH-46s could, but I seem to recall that the -53s usually used the aft spots, and if it was an issue for them, it would be for V-22s also. That might mean that we can't spot or launch as many aircraft simultaneously - anyone have any thoughts or info?

 

I would appear from this picture that the answer is, yes they can.



The ship is the LHD-5 USS Bataan

 

good call Carronade..and good pic Price...I can find dimensions on the 22 but not the ships....looks like it's about 70 feet from edge of deck to edge of starboard blades....about 83 feet total from both starboard to port edge blades ....blades are 38 feet diameter.....do they actually land in the middle though?? not much room at all...is that safe??? looks about 15 feet from blade to island....diameter of CH53 blades about 79 feet...close to a 22
I'll look at my pics...the one I put up on the forum of the CH53 landing on the Inchon looks like it is taken from the fantail....the 53 appears to be landing aft....I know the 53s were spotted aft....

 

The CH-53E is not that much smaller with it's rotor diameter of 79 feet, as opposed to the V-22's 84 feet 7 inches.


Photo taken on the Bataan in 2010.

 

disreagard my statement about the 70ft....more like 55...no way 70...., not much room any way you look at it......great flying.....
been so long since I took off in one, I can't begin to recall from what spots they took off from..they were always secured aft though.....although fun and loud, nothing special to remember there.....it does seem the 53s land midship from the videos I looked at
thanks Takao...4 was all the 53s we had on board....looks like that is the normal number for the Bataan
I never realized how close the overall widths of both aircraft are....

 

Of course, they always have the yellow shirts for help when landing.

However, to land at night and in a storm would be scary...But that goes for landing on any carrier under similar weather conditions.

With the alternating red & white stripped line being the centerline, and the flight deck width of 112 feet, it would be about 60 feet or so. However, the thick yellow line appears to be at about half that distance. So, that is about a width of 30 feet to land on.