Israeli Settlements

Yes, and I'm proud that we back Israel. It is a modern capitalist democratic state surrounded by savage nations ruled by despots.

 

Although I do not support terrorism, I support the Israeli state terrorism even less. If I was in the shoes of the desperate and helpless Palestinians, I might start shooting rockets as well.

If/when Israel continues to build the illegal settlements and opress the Palestinians she has only herself to blame for the attacks.

For the record: Israel murders at least ten times as much Palestinians as v.v.

 

So sorry for you...

Israel is a democracy like the USA before 1960's - or South Africa until 1994 - hardly "modern"...

Yes - much of the Arab world has a lot to improve (- as has Israel with her Jews only "democracy"). Does it mean that those countries are free to be exploited? Well - I'm afraid we know the answer already...


BTW - the Arab countries are capitalist too...

 

The difference being that till this day they are still fighting for there right with either there voices or there fists. That Israel has claimed to recognize a two state solution.. So simple fact on paper Israel in not so many words accepts the 'existence' of a Palestinian state so in essence your argument has become muted by the very perpetrators.

The same could be said for the Arabs, They too could be claimed to have lived there for thousands of years so to use the argument that the first ones there should be the rightful owners and government is problematic as I'm sure the lawyers from those times are a little dead and as such unable to verify the original inhabitants.(apologies if this sounds insulting to some, Was not my intention).

Actually what they can do with that aid is limited. Aid does not automatically make everything green and prosperous, Its first aim is to set up an economy but the only way an economy works is if you have good trade routes however with the Israeli settlements going so far into the West Bank they have built and isolated roads to support them which has thus cut trade off from many parts thus hindering any economic growth.

Add to that that all aid to flows into Palestine (Gaza strip) must come through Israel this hindering any economic growth or stability, The West bank is even worse off.

Your claim that the US/UN has given trillions to the Palestinians is also absurd. http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/israel-and-palestine/121116/israel-palestine-hamas-us-foreign-aid , According to this site based on US aid alone I highly dealt the rest of the world chipped in to put the aid amount into the 'trillions'... US aid to Israel $115b, US aid to Palestine $4b. Meaning that the rest would have to have given no less then $1,996 trillion, Might explain the GFC...

 

Arab and leftist propaganda - see link below. Again, why do you think these Palestinians outside of Israel are owed anything? Only 3.6% of them ever lived there, so I suppose that small number might have some claim. But the rest? Why should the UN (or anybody else) dictate immigration policy to a sovereign nation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

 

Yes I believe Israel has become more extreme and aggressive with the influx of Eastern European Jews from the former USSR and the rise of Likud and religious Parties of the Right which have overtaken the Labour Party as the natural choice for Government.

Why should the US give Israel carte blanche, unconditional support? If Israel stopped Settlements and squeezing the Arabs out of East Jerusalem, the US would find it much easier to develop friends in the Arab and Muslim World.

You would not give any other ally this support.

The Falkland Islanders have been there a lot longer than Israel and all are unquestionably English and threatened by Argentina but you would not give them unconditional support despite the fact that the UK has been your ally for a very long time. Naturally you have self interest - we all do.

Surely it is in America's self interest that Israel behaves more responsibly than she currently does (most of the rest of World and not just Muslims think this) and if so, then you have to put limits on her.

 

The gaza strip is on the sea, and borders Egypt in the west. The west bank borders Jordan on the east. Aid does not have to come through Israel.

This link shows 7.7 billion in donations from one donor conference alone - 2008 through 2010. That doesn't count money from outside that conduit - from Arab nations and private donors around the world. One thing you can measure is that none of that development aid has resulted in any kind of infrastructure, because the leaders syphon it all off. Mahmoud Abbas is reputed to have 100 million alone. How much did Arafat steal? How much has the inner circle stolen over the last 65 years?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians

Use the link below to zoom in close on Gaza - note the difference between the Israeli side and the Palestinian side. Move over to the West Bank and zoom in close again. The Arab side barren, the Israeli side green and beautiful. All of Israel will look like Gaza if the Arabs ever get their hands on it.

https://maps.google.com/maps?client=firefox-a&q=israel+map&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x1500492432a7c98b:0x6a6b422013352cba,Israel&gl=us&ei=hlcqUuzlO6zVigKqroH4BA&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQ8gEwAA

 

I would. I can't speak for my government. In the case of Israel, I don't have a religious or ethnic axe to grind. I just recognize a free nation amid tyrannical nations and so I'm going to support the free nation over the savages.

If there was any real justice in the world, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt would simply absorb the Palestinians and leave Israel alone. The Arabs have hung the Palestinians out to dry so they can be used against the only free nation in the region.

 

Give me a break! Yes; the Israelis occupied land in 1967, that they DID NOT ANNEX; yet they continue to spread hatred by crapping on the rights of every person living in the West Bank.

ISRAEL controls the border between the Palestinian West Bank and Jordan. I can tell you of many cases of blatant Israeli abuse; important materials refused entry, purely on the basis of it would benefit the Palestinian economy in the West Bank. Goods and Materials supplied as aid, left to rot, decay, rust and become obsolete because ISRAEL refused to allow a timely entry.

Travelling 20kms within the West Bank to visit your dying Grandmother can be impossible. The number of attacks coming out of the West Bank these days is zero. The mortars and rockets you refer to are from Hamas controlled Gaza Strip, an entirely different kettle of fish. Look at a map; Google, if you prefer.

You seem to think that we are arguing against the right of Israel to exist! All we are stating, is stop the illegal settlements! IF Israel continues along this path, it will cease to exist; each settlement creates more terrorists abroad, in the wider Muslim community. After nearly 50 years of oppression, injustice, and abuse, you can't be surprised at the vitriol.

For Israel, it's just a matter of time and demographics; seek a sustainable peace soon, or be buried.

Visit the place. Speak to the people.

 

"Israel is... sort of green, because they have been draining the water which should be running into the Dead Sea, which has fallen to an alarming degree. They cannot continue this indefinitely, it is unsustainable. Nobody takes a desert and makes an oasis, without long term consequences. The water level of this huge lake has fallen tens of meters."
Las Vegas comes to mind.
- Do they not use the water for irrigation of crops. ...Why has the other side not utilized the water the way Israel has? Surely not because they were worried about lake levels...Maybe just not as industrious as the Israeli's...Who'd you rather have as a neighbor.

 

Agree Scipio...clock cannot be turned back so far....But what can happen is the clock can be halted...No new settlements. Something that will be ignored though. Israel can have peace or it can have land...It cannot have both...Realism.

 

Gaza -
Yes the Gaza strip is on the sea but what you seem to want to conveniently forget is the Israeli navy blockading any ships coming in there. There border with Egypt is of no use to them due to the simple fact there is a big wall of whch there is only a single crossing point for which people only may enter and exit preventing any trade there at all, Hence why Hamas has actually had to revert to digging an extensive tunnel net work to smuggle stuff in (Be it weapons or common day items.)

West Bank -
Yes they are bordered with Jordan but as I have stated with the region split apart due to deep penetrating settlements there trade is difficult at best, Hugely more expensive then it need's to be. There border with Jordan has a mere 2 bridges for which trade can go back and forth across, Add to the numerous 'security' inspections along the way and any beneficial trade is lost.

Simple fact, Israel's actions in the West Bank have directly led to a stall in the local economy causing more dissent and anger at the Israeli's from the local Palestinians.

You accuse them to have siphoned it all of but prevent no evidence. The claim that Mahmoud Abbas is worth $100m was made only after the PA made moves to Rashid back to face possibly charges with the embezzlement of up to $500m, You are trying to use a he said, He said case as proof when all it is at the moment is hearsay.

Fact is much of the aid goes towards actually keeping the government work force paid then actual improvements because they just dont have the ability to do both, Build improvements or keep the workers happy and paid.

Looked at it and bravo on using Google maps as evidence to back up a topic that has cost countless lives already, Really great job.... But it still proves zilch. Gaza is barely able to get the bare necessities for construction so getting what they need for a Desalination plant is a mega job, Let alone the funds to do it. Same goes for the West bank, There biggest possibly source of water also has the highest concentration of salt in the world so they to would need a desalination plant for it to be of any use, Add to that a sizable pipe line system to spread it out across the land meaning said pipes would have to flow under Israeli supply roads and/or settlements (Good luck getting Israel to agree to that...)


You Sir appear to be looking at it in Black and white when it is very far from being that simple. Direct Israeli occupation has hampered Palestinian trade, Freedom of movement caused by Israeli settlements has further added to the problem. But you seem to be of the mind that because the Jew's apperantly lived there thousands of years before do kindly leave your house, Your likely not the original inhabitant of that land from 2,000 years ago..

 

"Leftist" propaganda? Nobody who knows me would call me a "leftist". I would never even think about voting for a left wing party - although I suppose most parties in Europe might feel "leftist" by US standards...

Naturally they have to have a handful of Arab members for propaganda purposes. Even in the USSR or the DDR there were several "independent" parties to show, that they too had democracy.

Because those Palestinians, or their parents/grand-parents, were ethnically cleansed from their homes. Children inherit their parents and their property. A death of a lawful owner does not mean, that a robber then suddenly legally owns the stolen property.

Because that sovereign nation has according to the international laws committed crimes against those refugees: e.g. ethnic cleansing, robbery and illegal denial of their return.

 

Israel controls the sea as well. Until very recently Egypt had sacrified the interest of the Gazans and closed her borders as well. Israel controls also the Palestinian border towards Jordan.

So if leaders of a nation have faults, then the citizens of that nation deserve no rights?

Not all nations are lucky to have such spotless leaders as Israel - such as Yitzhak Rabin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_Account_affair
David Appel/Ariel Sharon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_island_affair
Pinhas Lavon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
Asher Yadlin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadlin_affair
Avigdor Lieberman http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/Apr/16/Israel-struggles-with-myriad-political-scandals.ashx#axzz2eDig2KSd
Moshe Katsav http://people.howstuffworks.com/6-political-scandals.htm#page=10
and so on and so on...

Also Israeli propaganda should not be taken as exact truth. Questions you are making are pointless without evidence. "How much have you stolen in last ten years...?"

Told you before. There cannot be green without water. Isreal steals the water of the Palestinians.

 

The situation in Las Vegas is hardly comperable to Palestinia. No occupying force is stopping Las Vegas to get water.

Only source for the Palestinians to get water is Jordan - and the ground water. Israel controls all the waters there - and steals almost all of it. There's just no water left for the Palestinians.

I'd rather have a Palestinian...

 

Then we go back to my original point, which you ignore: The whole planet was stolen from somebody else! Why is it that only Israel is expected to implode itself by allowing itself to be inundated by people who have sworn to kill every Jew? Why is nobody clamoring to give north and south America back to the native tribes, Germany back parts of Poland, Belgium and France, Karelia to Finland, Bosnia to the Serbs.

If North America was handed back to political control of native Americans, they wouldn't kill all of the white people, We're friends. The same is true across Europe. Yet, in the case of Israel, the Arabs have sworn to kill every Jew or drive them into the sea. Yet, the world expects Israel to recognize the "right of return" for people who haven't lived there in generations.

Israel is not going to allow Hamas to control the West Bank because it will just be a staging ground for more Chinese, N. Korean and Russian missiles to be fired into the heart of Israel - those attacks that the whole world ignores.

 

I do not ignore your "point", but you seem to ignore my response to it - or maybe you just didn't understand it...

So - once again: the world has changed. What was kind of acceptable in ancient times is not any more. A hundred years ago there was not a world wide organisation with internationally accepted laws and codes of proper behaviour between and inside nations. Now there is. Somehow it seems that you haven't noticed this.

You have the action-reaction timeline a bit confused too. FIRST there were the foreigners (the Jews) who came to a foreign land inhabited by the locals (the Palestinians) . So far everything was fine. Instead of behaving those foreigners announced, that the land of the locals belong to the foreigners, and the locals have no room in their own land. "Surprisingly" the locals did not share the views of the foreigners and got upset. After that those foreigners founded a state - against the will of the locals and on their land - and kicked out most of the locals. THEN those locals swore that they would kill the foreigners.

Most of the American Indians got killed. There's not that many of them left and those who are, are often of mixed "blood" with bigger share of the conquerors. It's a bit difficult to return something to people, which do not exist any more. I also think, that at least in N-America they have received quite a lot of compensations, although maybe not enough.

In German/Polish case it's often a bit difficult to say, whether those areas were actually more German or Polish. I haven't heard, that Germany is demanding areas back from France or Belgium.

Nearly half of the Finns say, that Carelia should be returned to Finland - despite of the decades of soviet butt-licking official propaganda in Finland.

Bosnia should not be "returned" to Serbia, since the majority of the people in there were/are not Serbs and do not wish it.

AFAIK the white people in N-America do not treat the natives like slaves without human rights any more - like Israel does. Also the natives in N-America are now a very small minority - unlike the natives in Palestine/Israel (the refugees included).

Actually most of the Arabs have not sworn so, only a minority.. They want a fair solution of the conflict, which includes the state of Israel.

Almost all the people in Israel (Palestinians not included) have not lived there for generations. The refugees or their children/grand-children have not lived in their homeland for decades, because Israel has not allowed it. Continuing the crime does not make it eventually legal.

World does not pay that much attention to the amateurish missiles fired into the border areas of Israel, because they are not the cause but a consequence. Actually those quite harmless fireworks are a gift to Israeli government - now they can "justify" even more harsh revenge strikes against Palestinian civilians. Israel needs Hamas as well as Hamas needs Israeli strikes - to justify their own terror strikes.

One should also remember, that Israelis kill c. ten times more Palestinians than v.v.

The real cause for the hole human catastrophe in Palestine is of course the illegal and ever expanding occupation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine by the foreign fundamentalist aggressor - Israel.

 

Germany lost parts of its territory post-WWII. The same with Serbia/Bosnia and other places. This isn't ancient history, it's the same time period that Israel was established.

So, I ask again - why is Israel held to a different standard than say, Serbia?

 

Parts of those territories where also filled largely with people from nations that took those territories, The rest that went over was due to a fault in the Allied command taking more territory even when the people elected to remain part of Germany as a majority. In any case that should not set a precedent for Israel, They are two entirely different situations and this whole affair is not as black and white as you assume it to be.

 

The creation of the state of Israel was a mismanaged mess that only got worse because of superpowers meddling.
Some "facts"
- A significant numbers of Arab Palestinians want every jew dead or at least out of the Middle East.
- A significant number of Israeli voters believe they have a God given right to the whole of Palestine and Arabs should only be tollerated as non citizens, preferably unskilled, labour.
- Neither side has shown to have the capability and determination to curb it's extremists.
- Israel is not a democracy in the Western sense of the word, it is a "Jewish State", non jews that happen to live within it's borders, however numerous, are second rate citizens.
- Many Arab counties treat Palestinian refugees them as non citizen unskilled labour.
- No Arab state is a mature democracy in the Western sense of the word.
- UN resolutions have been more often than not ignored by all sides, including from Israel despite it being a UN resolution that gave it legittimacy in the first place.
- Israel never signed the NPT and has created a small but credible nuclear arsenal.
- Israel, with US full backing, is doing all it can (inluding air strikes, assassinations, sabotage etc.) to prevent any nation hostle to it from having nukes.
- While Israel no doubt has the best military in the area it lacks strategic depth, given the current borders an attack reaching the sea before they can fully mobilize is a real threat.
- The Jews are loosing the "demographics war", despite the influx of immigrants from outside the Palestinan Arab population grows faster than the Jewish one.
- No Palestinian leader that shows a soft attitude towards Israel is likely to stay in power f(or even alive) for long.
- Israel has opposed the creation of a strong functioning Palestinian state, often resorting to means like killing potential strong leaders.
- The Palestinian leadership is weak and divided, the chances they could completely rein in the extremists, even if they really wanted to, is slim.
- Huge amounts of arab "guilt money" has created widespread curruption in the Palestinian leadership weakening it further.
- The Jews possibly invented modern terrorism in their fight to get the British out of Palestine.
- After 1967 the Palestinians embraced terrorism as the only effective way of fighting Israel military capabilites.
- The area attracts superpower meddling like a magnet, there have been direct iInterventions by British, French and US troops in the area, and massive amounts of money and weapons by the USSR.
- Israel has a very efficient propaganda machine that has often successfully hidden the "unpleasant truths" in the above list from world opinion.
- Israel has also benefitted from guilt feelings in Europe concerning the Holocaust, and widely uses the "opposition to Istrael = antti-semmitism" argument to block rational analisys of it's actions.
- The Arabs have OIL and are learning to do propaganda too.

and the list could go on ...... in short:

Holy land unholy mess.