Israels Actions

The Stern Gang (or Lehi).

Before I start - yes, they are definable as terrorists. And it does go to show that people of any creed or colour can be evil little sods.

However, to answer your points...

First up - they are not 'Israeli' - they were a group that operated with the Zionist Undergraound movement in 'Palestine' before Israel was created, and by all accounts not a very liked group within the underground movement. Stern himself advocated joining Nazi Germany to fight the British, on the grounds that the Nazis would probably be happy to create a nation where they could ship Jews off to.

So, Jews yes. Israeli no. Admittedly in May 1948 they were integrated into the IDF - as was every underground movement, and just about anybody who could hold a gun, as Israel was fighting for survival.

But at this point you are going to bring up Count Bernadotte...
This was a Lehi operation conducted in September 1948. However, it was a Lehi operation, not an IDF operation. Why they did it is a mystery to me, and frankly it is just plain wrong whatever reason you can find. But again, a terrorist group, not an Israeli action.


Secondly, the Lehi leadership themselves quoted the IRA, and in particular Michael Collins, as the source for their methods.

They targetted mainly British servicemen, police officers, the occaisional 'collaborator', British politicians (via mail bombs) and infastructure (railways, bridges, etc). Not quite a campaign of randomly bombing civilian targets...

The biggest issue are the suggestions (mostly by Benny Morris) that they participated in 2 massacres during 1948 - again both before Israel existed.


By the way, I have attached an interesting link - it is the Wikipedia list of massacres in 'Palestine/Israel' 1947 - 1948.

Interesting reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ma ... sraeli_war

 

if the israelies wanted to kill civillians they could easily kill all the civillians in lebenon ,syria and jordan ...they ,as do we in the west ,try their best NOT to kill civillians.....yet its quite plain that muslim terroists(freedom fighters) actually TARGET civillians....do the israelies and coalition forces kill civilians...yes ,war is sloppy and inexact...it would be a big help if muslim freedom fighters did not hide behind the skirts of their women and children...but of course if the muslim fighters isolated themselves and their weapons ,leaders and hqs from their civillians the idf would have rubbed them all out long ago....there will never be peace until the israelies stop their bigotted ranting about pushing every arab into the sea in a trail of blood.....if only the jews would concede that lebanon ,syria ,jordon eygpt ,iran,iraq ,saudi arabia and kuwait had at least the right to exist...when will the persecution stop,why cant the giant jewish state stop its endless attacks on its tiny peaceloving helpless neighbors...

 

Obviously not.

It seems the reson why palestinian and Lebanooni civilians are ruluctant to leave their homes when Israel is demanding their evacuation is well founded.
List of depopulated vlliges and towns in 1948 war:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Arab-Israeli_war

It seems that Israelis have some kind of racist grudge against Arabs in general, not just mulsims. Case of Palestinian Greek-Catholic christian villiges of Ikrit and Biram as reported by Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/page...ID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=81662

And Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iqrit

And BTW by Israel signed guaranties are obviously not worth much:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/07/08/BU162036.DTL

 

Or you could take it as being that it shows that Israelis are not anti-Muslim...

From the article there are a number of issues that apear to be stopping the re-populatio from happening.

1) from Ben-Gurion's diary, no less: "as for the Christians of Biram and other villages... we will willingly consider their return only when the situation on the border is stabilized." When has the Israeli border been really stable. Arguably, never.

2) The villagers have been offered a re-location of their villiages, which was turned down.

3) An allowance of this one case would set a precedent for all cases, which Israel does not want to do.


Are they right?

 

No just rasistic when it comes to Palestinians.
Wiki's article on the willages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafr_Bir'im

 

tiso ...may i ask ,what is your religious orientation?...here in the us ,most people i meet who are pro plo,hezbolla ,hamas tend to be athiest or non religious....i myself am an agnostic,i dont denie the existence of god,nor do i promote the existence...i simply dont know...and since no one can prove or disprove it this seems the only rational veiw to me.....muslims may dislike practicing jews or christians but they hold non belivers like me in very low regard,many muslims would feel no remorse about killing me,my wife ,children and parents as we are subhuman in their eyes...the 911 bombers called the american passengers and office workers animals (fit for slaughter) in eastern europe ,germany and france there are many people who hate the jews and thought hitler had the right idea we call these biggots anti- semites here in america (ie mel gibson )....so ,back to my question...are you non religious like me(if so ,why do you support those who would kill you and your family?)are you muslim ,or perhaps merely a person with a deep seated racial hatred for the jews...i mean no offense and would appreciat yuor honest answer

 

Majorwoody that is a very small percentage of muslims you are describing. Most Muslims are very nice people and I doubt they would take your life jsut for not beign a muslim. My high school is next to the only city Mosque and for some reason we get along quite well, probably because they arent bad people. I doubt most of them would care if you are agnostic or aethist or catholic.

 

I'm catholic christian if you have to know.

I was waiting to be branded as anti-semite from the start of this topic. I have nothing against Jews but against racism in general. I have no problem with jews and/or muslims (be that religious and/or racial). What i hate is nazis (no matter what sign they hide behind be that swastika, red star or star of David), those who act like them and duble standards in dealing with them.
In my opinion if one acts like nazi, talks like nazi he usualy is a nazi no matter behind what sign he is hiding. With that they/he should expect to be trated like one.

Some of the posts here were interesting in defending Israel's actions even if they should be considered war crimes or crimes against humanity in general. Poeple were hanged for much less than what cetain Isreli soldiers/generals/politicians did. But nobody has the guts to say this. All they see is Israel is fighting "terrorism", but even here there are double standards (remember what certain Israeli politicians were some years ago). Some say Israel has a right to defend itself. It is so and i'm not denying that, but others (Palestinians, Lebanese...) have also right to defend themselves, but that it seems is not important. Or is it?

Lets face it if anyone else would treat part of own population or occupied territories like Israel (that is as a country not as Jewish poeple) international sanctions would be applied immediatly (South Africa and Serbia (in my vicinity) comes to mind here). Not to mention flagrant violations of UN resolutions dealing with human rights abuses.... Lets remember recent events in Kosovo and Bosnia. Serbs did pretty much the same as Israelis but nobody is defending them.
Why is that?

 

majorwoody please re-think your views of muslims on agnostics, i am agnostic but my uncle who is a muslim does not call me sub-human in anyway nor do my cousins who are muslims nor do any of his imediate family in Jordan who welcomed me with open arms when I last visited sterotypes like you have just stated only help the extremeist cause, it is the extremeist who should be punished not the ordinary muslims. Another reason for why not all muslims are bad, where do you think the British and American itelligence forces are getting information about terrorist attacks from? there must be a insider (probably another muslim) who is feeding us information)

 

I realy don't know where you got that histeric notions from. I know quite few muslims. They are form Bosnia and Kosovo (BTW they are of Sunni version of muslim faith). They are not a wild bunch just waiting to slit your or for that matter even Serb throut (and they have justified grudge against them). They are poeple just like you. Even during the worst times of war against them in their countries (which had more to do with nationalism than religion) they were not acting like that.
Replace the word muslims with jews and see what you said.
Are you a crusader and/or anti-muslim activist and/or fu***n nazi?

Here i should write who i'm branding a nazi here. Nazis are all that have notion that they are superior to others becouse of nationality, race or religion.

Are you shure they want ti kill me and my family? If they wanted to they would done thet looong time ago (we did live in the same country i.e. Yugoslavia).

Why i have such position on the subject?
Becouse I still remember what Hitler said in 1941 when he visited Maribor after Yugoslavia capitulated. Concerning Slovenes he said: "Make me this land German again!". After that deportations of Slovenes started ( to Sebia and KZ's). So excuse me if i don't like anyone with notion that ethnic cleansings are OK as they "serve only to protect ones nation".

 

please note i said many muslims ...not all muslims..i also have some muslim freinds(iranians who rushed to my aid in a street brawl thank you ali and saied)i have never met a muslim that did not have a hard on for israel.,however.....when the twin towers were struck ,i witnessed on tv huge street dances in muslim citys that looked like vj day in san francisco (sans women though)...an american contracter was beheaded on tv and to my knowlege not even one muslim cleric decryed this hidious act...a recent poll has some 88 % of lebonese supporting hezbolla which if im not mistaken wants to drive every jew into the sea in a trail of blood...tiso,dave, how do your muslim freinds feel about the israelies?live and let live,is it?

 

Good news about the truce though...

I doubt it will change much in the future (Lebanon will be unlikely to prove any more willing or able to control Hizbollah, and Israel will continue to stomp hard on any perceived or real aggression) but at least people are not getting killed at the moment.

Any improvement is a good thing, right?

 

lol ..yes ricky ,peace in our time...well for a few weeks mabey...the thing is of course ,no matter what concessions the israelies agree too ,there will always be a group of arabs who still want to kill them all,this sadly will not change.

 

My last post went MIA (again).
I would be gratefull if administrator would look into this.
I do not know if this is accidental or case of censorship, but it is unacceptable in any case.

 

Rest assured TISO, no posts have been deleted, intentionally or otherwise.


I am not tech-savvy enough to give an explanation, though this has happened to me on other forums - it might be to do with being timed-out if it is very long? If I am writing a long post one thing I do is to write it out in Word (or similar) then paste it in to the forum, rather than writing it all out in here & risk losing it.

I will get Roel to investigate - he is better at the tech side of the forum.

 

tiso..you are a yugoslavian catholic doesnt this mean you are croation?couldnt this cause you to be just a tiny bit anti semetic mabey?you claim to hate the nazis but your countrymen worked hand in hand with the ss rid the land of jews and serbs right?
the germans claim that you croats were very inventive in ways of disposeing of jews and such...burieing them alive ,burning ,pitching off cliffs,smashing heads with hammers...why waste bullets i guess....didnt a croat commander tell his boys they werent real soldiers unless the could slice open a pregnant jewish girls belly and yank out her fetus?( arent you guys supose to be anti abortion.)..THEY SAY EVEN HARDEND SS MEN couldnt keep down their lunch when working with the happy go lucky croat militia ... sweeping out a village of jews or serbs...you know ,clensing ethnics...tiso ,im not suggesting that you or your forbearers had any part in these wholesale torture murders...but cultureally it might color the way you percieve jews if youn grew up among croations.btw it seems many of bosnian muslims were also quite happy to slice jewish throats fot their german masters..

 

Now you are just showing off your ignorance. Yugoslavs as a nation never existed.
Yugoslavia was compoesed from different nationalities: Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Bosniaks ( Muslims) and large spectre of natonal minorities ( Albanians, Italians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Gypsies, White Russians- Russins,....). If you would to care read my posts carefully, you would see that is stated that i'm of Slovene nationality & citizenship. If you intend to slander me you should at least know what you are writing about i.e. history of Yugoslavia and who is who here.

Slovenia is a former socialist republic that gained independance in 1991 after brief 10 day war. We are now part of EU and NATO. It is situated between Italy, Austria, Hungary and Croatia.

Slovenia ( at the time of occupation in 1941 Dravska banovina) was devided among Germans (they annexed their zone into 3rd reich), Italians and Hungarians. Part of it was was occupied and annexed by Italians after ww1.
Jewish community was very small in Slovenia and Germans saw to destruction of it in their occupatione zone. In Italian zone of occupation things were different and some even Jews from Germany (large group of shcool girls ...) were hiding (quite openly under Italians) for entire war (even after Italians capitulated in sept.1943) with help of Slovenes. Some jews were deported by Germans after sept.1943 when they occupied former Italian zone.

About my forebarers.
My grandfather on mother side was classed as not worthy of german citizenship (becouse of hernia he could not be forcibly mobilsed into wehrmacht like his brothers and was classified as of ostish race) but not worth deporting either (he was not member of any Slovene political party or national organisation), he and his family was in sort of legal limbo and held in reserve for possible retaliation excutions. As such could not own proprety which was promptly confiscated. One of mothers uncles was deported for volunteering to Yugoslav royal army in 1941.
My grandfather on father side (in Italian zone) was send to force labour in Salzburg (Austria) by Germans his brothers were deported to Italian KZ at Gonars (except for one who was POW in Germany).
So don't even try to pull my forebarers bullshit colouring my view of jews.

In my posts i was carefull to write Israelis and not jews. I did not generalise Jews with Israeli state (like you did with muslims and entire mid-east region).

Other part of your post is not worth commenting. I do know what happened in NDH (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska - Independant state of Croatia) between Croats, Serbs, Muslims and Jews. But if you don't know the specifics of Yugoslavia and what happened here (like you proven with your post) do not write such generalising posts.
About Croats and their dealings with Jews and Serbs you should at least read a book or two, becouse some of specifics you wrote are not even in old communist books that would be happy to write about it. They would be more appropriate for Ustahsa (small rabid Croat nationalistic militia which you again generalised over entire Croat nation)) dealings with Serbs than with Jews (there were not so many Jews in Croatia to begin with).

BTW
We, as Jugoslavia were quite happy to supply Israel with weapons as transit route for Czeh weapons (operations like Velveta 2 - ie. transfer of Czeh Spitfires LF-IX) and staging point for their refuges sailing to Palestine, after ww2 and in 1947/48.
Where do you think they got Hotchkiss H-39 tanks with german commanders cupola - ex. French, ex. 7.SS Freiwillige Gebirgs division Prinz Eugen & 202. pz.abt. , ex. YU partisan). Even though we later changes sides our inteligence services were in good relations up to the end.

 

i stand corrected then....so serbs are russian orthodox ,croats are catholics,bosnians are mostly muslims...slovenians are mostly catholic?...did the slovenians side with the axis like croatia did?the hidious atrocitys described were atributed to the ustashi but often reported on by there italian and german comrads as well as surviving serbs and jews...

 

tiso ,are you saying that the idf practices ethnic cleansing as a matter of policy?in 1948 there was much ethnic cleansing in the middle east,tens of thousands of jews were murdered in arab countries...in lebanon in 81 druze militia killed palistinian civillans and some blame the idf as i recall ....almost all of israels neighbors have been openly calling for ethnic cleansing since israel was born the idf has killed many civilians to be sure but ive never heard it labeled as cleansing by anyone..much cleansing would surely occur if the idf ever lost a major battle guess thats why they practice so much..

 

Serbs - Serb ortodox church
Croats - Catholic
Slovenes - Chatolic (most, small number are protestant)
Macedonians - Macedonian orthodox church
Montenegrins- Montenegro or Serb ortodox church
Bosniaks - Muslem

In Bosnia main devide was religion (definition of ones nation). It happened that one part of the family was serb and other catholic.

No we were occupied and had no independant state. There was some collaboration but that was mainly becouse partisans were having revolution in Italian occupation zone (wery little in German zone). Slovenes in German occupation zone were forcibly mobilesed into wehrmacht en masse (same as Alzace or Luxemburg). Same was in Italian zone occupied after ww1. From Slovene POW from Italian and German armies some NOVJ (Narodno osvobodilna vojska Jugoslavije - National liberation army of Yugoslavia) brigades (1. armoured brigade NOVJ and some infantry units) were formed by British and Soviets (in combination with Croats captured at Stalingrad). 1. armored brigade excelled in liberation of Dalmatia and Slovenia, Soviet formed units participated in operation on Srem front.

What you described was basicly same story that is repeated trough history just actors are different (in midlle ages and first Balcan war it was Turks (even though Greeks also often practiced this), than Bulgarians, then Serbs, Croats...

It seems so. Read links thet i gave you.

Quid pro quo. Prove those tens of thousand murdered!

Sabra and Shatila massacers were perpetrated by Falanga (christian militia) under IDF command (Sharon) with logistical backing by IDF and IDF liason officers. Same goes for South Lebanese army (collaborators).

Israeli actions speak for themselves. Interesting point, about ethnic cleansing of settlers (i.e. 90% of Jewish population of Israel). Term ethnic cleansing is ussualy applied when native population or part of it is kicked out by agressor. Are Israelis native population of Palestine/Israel area or Europe (most of them)? I always thought that most of them setlled there from late 1800's early 1900's.

You also write about ethnic cleansing of Jews in Mid east. Were they native to other mid-east countries or Israel?

BTW you didn't answer my question: