Japanese Invasion

Hi Walt: I agree that an invasion was not possible later in the war but was it feasible at the beginning? With the Pacific Fleet's capabilities somewhat limited after the attack on Pearl, a seperate invasion into Alaska may have been possible. Even if they could not have followed up on it as far as gettin into the continental US, it would have kept all US Forces on the west coast and out of the Pacific. With an immediate threat in Alaska, Yamamoto would have had full run to do what he wanted and may have seen the US sue for peace. It has been said that the Japanese Naval Landing Forces were equal to our Marines, if that was the case it would have taken extreme fighting and casualties to remove tham from Alaksa. That may have been enough to Keep America out of the war, at least for a while longer. Just a thought.

 

Well didn't the Japanese in effect try to do that? In the very least threaten the west coast and Alaska.
this happened only 6 months after pearl harbor. The US fleet was not much more powerful than it was as immediatly after pearl harbor.
The Japanese sent an invasion force and Bombed dutch harbor and invaded the Aleutions islands. Luckily though, our intelligence discovered the main target was Midway and the Alaska attack was a ruse. And thus the US was not tricked into sending massive forces to alaska.
Although it is obvious the Japanese themselves didn't take and invasion of Alaska or the west coast seriously otherwise that Aleution campaign would have been quite a bit bigger you know!
BUT hmm if the Japanese concentrated all their efforts on Alaska how would they do? Well i think in the beginning pretty well...i can't begin to guess how much of alaska they'd take but i would be shocked if they had made it to Canada but that depends how many US and Canadian units were there. (however by this time US intel would prob know Alaska was the main target and thus when Japan invaded things wouldn't go so well because surprise was lost and the offensive would bog down even faster since the US would have boosted the defensives because of the intel.) Although i'm sure a concerted effort would be made to bring men and equipment up there ASAP and thus bogging down the Japanese offensive quite quickly.
after the first initial days of the invasion the Japanese would loose the advantage also because the lack of supply...the invasion would need to be so huge and the japanese were already so thinly stretched that...i belive it just could not have worked or at least achieve much.
I think after pearl harbor the japanese knew attacks like that would do nothing but exasperate the US even more...it surely wouldn't help end the war! and then concentrated on defending their newly aquired lands.
I guess the Japanese just hoped they would bog down US efforts to invade their island bases. And eventually the US public would tire and thus the gov would sue for peace?
I guess that was thier card to play...make the public loose faith in the war and make the gov sue for peace? Thats my guess anyone feel differently?
OH and yes i guess an invasion of alaska as big as i mentioned...i guess that would throw off US forces going to europe...and screw up plans in the pacific...i guess it could extend the war a bit. But i don't think the Japanese wanted to extend the war.. they wanted a way to win...and i think they even figured invasion like that was not feasable! Or if feasable not worth the cost because the gain would be unimportant to the japanese cause.

[ 20 April 2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Ron ]

 

Hi Ron: I agree that attacking the US mainland was not in the plans. However, a concentrated force in Alaska could have tied down enough troops for them to occupy and reinforce in strength every thing between Japan and Pearl.

 

Hmmm yeah thats a good point...i guess it would have extended the war a bit by pushing so mush US effort up there.
But then again you have to guess...what things the Japanese had sacrificed for such a HUGE operation in Alaska. It no doubt would use up most of their supply of available men and material.
So then once that force was destroyed you have to wonder where those men and material would have been historiclly...maybe if there was a battle in Alaska Guadalcanal would never have come about...or at least not in the significant way it did.
Maybe all those naval battles would have occured in alaska and not the solomons.
So thus whether the forces were destroyed in alaska not guadalcanal...the war would be on a similar time track?
Maybe so many men and equipment would have been expended in alaska that when the US finally did thrust in the South and central pacific the battles would have rapped up quicker than historically being that forces that would have been there were destroyed already in alaska.

 

Hi Walt: Sorry it took mr this long to get back to you.

Yep--the Germans has an entire U-Flottille stationed in the Pacific with about a froce of 10 U boats in the Flotille. Most notible of the U boats stationed there were U 181 and U 191. The surviving U boats were given to the japanese at the capitulation and surrender of all of Germanys forces in May of 1945. U 181 was still in business after the surrender and they did the correct thing and turned U 181 over to the japanese--who needed to be tought a few things about the u boats and then they interred the German crews. The japanese "allies" didnt really mistreat the Uboat crews--but they didnt act like trusted allies, and the japanese became increasingly unfriendlier to their German "allies" Basically a more friendlier way of stabbing their allies in the back.

 

Seems to me that the main goal of the Japanese was to gain control of the Southern, Central, and Western Pacific....reason....slave labor and tin,rubber,manganese...and most important...oil!...Alaska just dident fit that picture. Ron, I think your right in all that you said....I admit I have never been one for wondering, well what if?...cant change history. if it didnt happen, well so be it....I think it is often overlooked that Japan was a proud Nation. She had come an amazing way since the 1920's. She concidered herself to be a leadind power in the the Word...Yet she felt that the Americans and the British treated her as a secound class citizen (yes we did)the Naval treaty of 1921, and the imagration laws which barred Asians for exsample caused great resentment in Japan...they then set out on a plan to take over parts of the Pacific in order to make herself free of Western domination...enter China...then we say, the door to china must be kept open....result...war....I would like to point out to, that their were many in the Japanese government who tried to prevent the war. I think their were eight of them who were assignated by the young militarist who were taking more and more controll...the Japanese were Impealist, and they were wrong in their plan to dominate the other Asian people to satisfy their needs, but they did have just complaints which the super powers refused to recognize....well I will speculate...(do what I said I dont do)..what if the Japanese would not have had the "bashito code" and all the mind set that went with that....Boy Im really reaching here, but I think our Soldiers would have respected them, rather than hate them. Who knows how that could have affected the course of the war...perhaps they would have surrendered after the campaigns in the Central Pacific?.....rather than choose to fight to the death.....no Kamikize planes...no bonzi charges...no bomb would have been nessary....but it just dident happen that way, because all the above "just aint true"...so its all just so much jibbirsh.....later friends

 

Hi Walt: If Japan had truly succeded at Pearl, (everyone looks at what they accomplished and not what they didnt) than the door would have been open to an invasion almost anywhere they wanted.

 

Hey guys

Hmmm Walt, i would think that had the Japanese not had the bushido code the major powers would still have regarded them as secondary because of their race. And thus shown the same indignities as were show historically.
However i guess since you started this what if that if they never had their bushido code then you could say that no matter what the major powers did there would have been no war because Japan would have had a much less militeristic government. So thus maybe there would have been no modern Navy or army...and then there would be no invasion of China...and then no Major Pacific war! heheh
that IS i big what if...there not being a bushido code...that messes with hundreds of years of history!

 

OK guys, you got me ! I knew I shouldent have started that "what if" stuff.ha ha....Steve, I disagree, if you meant that The Japanese could have invaded the West Coast...if they had sunk all the ships at pearl, and distroyed the drydocks there....As an invasion fleet aproched the coast, every n.g. division in the country would have merged to meet them on the beach. Thats assuming their were any left after all the land based bomers in America got through with them. And remember too, the Japanese supply line would have been about 11,000 miles long. It is true, that the U.S. would not have much of a Navy except submarines, but I just dont see how they could have sustained an offencive campaign for long.....Ron...The ground troops of the Pacific theater respected the courage,and soldier skills of the Japanese, but it was the utter waste of life that made them bitter towards them(I admit, Im just guessing here. just based on my thoughts about human behavor, not written fact)I think you are right, that we did not respect them because of our own ignorance, but What I meant was, as the war went along, and the Japs had been more like us the war would not have been nearly as bitter as it was. They would have been more apt to surrender, (not because they were not good soldiers, but because it was hopeless)and we would have been in a better mood to find a way to let them. But because of the code, none of that was ever going to happen....anyway, Im sorry for starting that what if thing, and I wont do it again, but it has been interesting...sure wish this thing had a spell checker on it...Ha!

 

The Japanese wouldnt have needed to sustain an invasion for long. Any attack into, say Alaska would have tied down enough men and material for the Japanese to fortify everything they had already aquired. The Japanese missed out on a couple of key items at Pearl that would have allowed them the freedom of movement that they needed. First, as you mentioned Walt, they missed the dry docks but even more importantly they missed the fuel farms and the carriers. There were no other fuel depots between Pearl and San Diego and there were no other available carriers.

 

Hey Walt make as many what-ifs as you like no prob!! In fact there is a thread just for what-ifs...so go nuts!!

hmm and Steve...i could see a succesful invasion of hawaii had they knocked out ALLL the right stuff in Hawaii.
Although it would be unrealistic to say the Japanese would sink every ship...say they sank Enterprise and Yorktown plus all the battleships. Well then US forces would still have Lexington, Saratoga, Hornet, and [Wasp--(a bit later on i guess)] but still..at least 3 carriers...Plus the normal cruisers and destroyers.
BUT if the Japanese eventually sank them too and captured Hawaii...then all it would have done was extend the war a year or 2. The US would have to wait until early 43 when they had some carriers again...and they could start their march towards Tokyo....although in this case...it wouldn't have started at guadalcanal...it would have started at Hawaii.
After Hawaii...even in a what if it is hard for me to consider the Japanese invading the US mainland simply because of the lack of motive.
Although I guess it would be possible for the Japanese to think if they invaded the mainland then the US would then surely seek peace...for i think the Japanese would understand that it was unrealistic to occupy all of the US all the way to washington. But an invasion into the mainland would never hold long at all...for logistical reasons...The Japanese would never be able to adequetly supply it's troops to overwhelm the US...but the US would quickly mass forces to counter the threat and overwhelm the invading forces quite quickly after the landing no matter what the original gains...i see this same scenario if the Japanese invaded Alaska...the Japanese would gain ground quite quickly the US would mass forces and overwhelm them logisticaly.

frankly i think had the Japanese captured hawaii that would be as far east they would go. After the capture of Hawaii the Japanese would prob then have time to capture all of New Guinie...and if they felt the need they could get the solomons too. i think they would relegate Australian forces to being impotent but not invade. After all this was accomplished the Japanese would just start to build defenses and consume their new natural resources with glee...but the US still would have surrendered and eventually would grow powerful enough to launch an invasion of Hawaii and start the war there.
After that who knows...i would guess the same approximate campaign would start just like it did historiclly..at Guadalcanal...and then to the central pacific...and then the south and central pacific at the same time...and eventually would end with the bomb...and who knows...maybe Iwo Jima and okinawa would never have been invaded...for as soon as the Marianas were taken the Nuclear bomb would have been dropped and that schedule would still be the same as it was historically. So who knows...maybe had the japanese even captured Hawaii the war could still have been won in sept 45 because a capture of Hawaii and or New guinnie would have had no effect on when the russians were going to enter the pacific war or when the US would have been able to drop the bomb.
PHEW did i ramble on, HA!
oh well take care

 

Hi Ron: I dont think the Japanese would want to invade the Continental US but an invasion into Alaska would have been good enough to buy time to properly fortify their possesions in the Pacific. Also, there wouldnt have been that many ships available to the west coast. At the time the Pacific Fleet was already being thinned out in order to supply the English with more destroyers and others still were being used to help protect convoys across the Atlantic. Obviously they would have stopped the transfer of destroyers but then that may have hurt the English and the convoy protection. If the Japanese had invaded they would have most certainly used their NLF along with regular army units which would have been more than enough against green N.G. units, at least in the beginning. I agree that an invasion wouldnt survive that long but all they would need was a little time to accomplish what they needed to do elsewhere.

 

i dunno, if the Japanese launched such an offensive in alaska...would there be much the Japanese could use to fortify with?...at least in the numbers that would make the fortification meaningful. If so much was being used in Alaska...
and my guess would be that it would also use up scores of well trained and tried units. Plus material that historically was actually used for defence.?

[ 23 April 2002, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Ron ]