Madagscar, Azores, & Canaris islands

Rodina. I did find some data on Penang. It is in Malaya, not Java. The Germans also used 2 other bases one in Seletar Singapore, & one at Batavia Jakarta. U-181 sank 27 ships in 4 patrols for 138.779 tons. not exactly "insignificant" A couple of other U-boats operated there with a float plane from the Michel raider. for more data punch in www.combinedfleet.com/I-501.htm

 

Thankyou, I read your article. I agree, not insignificant. But bear in mind the difficulty: how sustainable could this effort be? Transit time, per your link, was over 4 months! U-181 with no military load could transport cargo to the weight of 250 tons of strategic materials. How much tonnage was any of the freighters she sank able to carry?

Would a few sporadic (and risky) flights by German floatplanes be able to sustain operations?

How important were the 27 ships sunk? What were they carrying? Oil? Planes? Tanks? Infantry (the most precious cargo of all? Or was it "general bulk"?

I (for lack of better knowledge, as this is not my field) still think this was more of a political operation, something like stretching a hand to the Japanese.

 

In the Mediterranean the Germans had the protection of the powerful Italian fleet, which for most of the N.African campaign was far larger than the RN Mediterranean fleet.
Even with the destruction of the British Indian Ocean fleet the Japanese would not be able to land or maintain a worthwhile garrison on the Island, they just didn't have the logistical capacity to spare.
Madagascar is just too far away from any other Japanese-held territory for it to be practical.

[ 17. July 2004, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: redcoat ]

 

Nonsense. The Italian Navy was useless in Med. It faced Brits one time,lost & never did it again. Japan had a larger navy than U.S. at begin of war, of course they had enough ships to land a sizeable force in Madagascar. As for U-boats taking 4 months to reach Malaya, it would take much less time for surface ships to reach it, & with occupation of Madagascar, the route is shortened by half. The Penang base could've been doubled in size with supplies being much easier to get across with Madagacar as a stop gap.

 

Accrding to the Regia Marina Italiana website, the Italian Navy's 10th Light Flotilla sank or damaged 28 ships - including the battleships HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Valiant and the cruiser HMS York - during World War II.

[ 01. August 2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Deep Web Diver ]

 

All right, but what major German interests were being fought over from Penang?

Weren't these diverted resources more urgently needed elsewhere, such as contributing to the Brit. Isles blockade?

 

All right, unconventional forces using unconventional tactics may have success, but the Brits gave the Tirpitz the same treatment, and also had a couple of contacts with the Italian Navy, at Tarento and at Cape Matapan, so it was not all British defeats in the Med...

Italy was un unsinkable aircraft carrier, so did Mussolini say, but if the "aircraft carrier" was safe then the same did not apply to the battleships, cruisers, destroyers etc. At least the unconventional part worked ok, as for the rest they were a pretty group of white elephants.

 

The ships sunk from Australia to Suez or british isles would be considered a part of the Blockade of Britain, just longer range blockade. Also India-Burma traffic might be another target for Penang boats,as well as ships heading round tip of south america from New Zealand & Australia.

 

Whatever you say, Chr., but that sounds somewhat far-fetched in more ways than one. One of the components of the German strategy in the Battle of the Atlantic was the economic suffocation of the UK, that's what the blockade was for, and I don't see that happening off Sumatra.

In any case, I still believe that a submarine base at Lorient for example would find itself easier supplied than the one at Penang. The keywords for me are "out on a limb".

A Google search on "german submarine penang" raises some interesting links.

[ 30. July 2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Za Rodina ]

 

I do not believe that the fighting in the Med was all British defeats. I was simply taking issue with someone else's claim that the Italian Navy "was useless in Med" by pointing out the war-time achievements of Italy's frogmen.

As for Italy's conventional naval forces, they weren't entirely a "pretty group of white elephants." World War II magazine recently ran an article on a 1943 battle between German and Italian naval forces off Corsica in which Commander Carlo Fecia di Cossato - an Italian submarine ace who had previously been decorated by Germany - defeated the German naval force.

World War II: Table of Contents for World War II - March 2004; 'Attack and Sink' by Vincent P. O'Hara

Regia Marina Italiana: Commander Carlo Fecia di Cossato

Regia Marina Italiana: In Bookstores ...

[ 01. August 2004, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Deep Web Diver ]

 

OK, frog men were effective, pioneering as well, but frogmen play no part in defending a landing. & Cossato more than likely had better ships than the Germans in this skirmish. Italian U-boats produced maybe one or 2 major aces.