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MAY 16TH 1943 WARSAW POLAND / THE SS

Discussion in 'Winter and Continuation Wars' started by WALT, May 16, 2002.

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  1. Yitzak Meidner

    Yitzak Meidner recruit

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    Yes, you did have family in the military! Many of you had good men who fought for freedom and democracy but some of you such as Friedrich had dogs inside an uniform, slaughtering my people!

    You had grandparents in armies, I had mine in Bergen-Belsen!

    Do not tell me it is logic to admire such bastards!
     
  2. WALT

    WALT Member

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    YITZAIK...I, and we, understand....I did not say you should admire the NAZIE'S!...All Im saying is that everybody has a right to put their point out there, and we can all disagree...but...blind hateread is what caused the war in the first place. Seems to me, that reason, logic, and historical facts MUST be the basis for your arguments...if not, then whats the point?....case in point: a german weatherman serving in Russia, wrote home to his two sons and wife {his last letter) that he had been issued a pistol, but he proud to say he had never shot anybody. He was killed in battle the next day....My question is, would you lump all soldiers togeather and say that this man was as bad as say some Nazie Officer in charge of one of the camps. I say no. If this world is ever going to progress, then we all have the responsibilty of looking at all sides of every issue, and not just our own narrow vision. By the way, the point to the story of the weatherman is that not all German soldiers were bad men, and that is a Histoical fact. It is not an emotitonal statement, it is just fact.....and you are right, my people did fight the Germans and the Japanese, and the man I am named after was killed by Germans in 1944, but from all I've heard of him, I think he would agree with what I have said here....Yitzak, please let me be clear, I am not defending the Nazies in any way shape or form, but I dont belive that all German soldiers were mad dog killers as you say. Many Germans were killeed by the ss or whatever for trying to smuggle jews out of germany....you know that....or you should.
     
  3. Otto

    Otto Rested & Resupplied with MREs. Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Yitzak,

    I know can't possibly appreciate the depths of your feelings about World War Two. As much as is possible, I feel sorrowful for the people, all people, who needlessly lost their lives during the war.

    Many people had relatives who fought on both sides of the conflict. My grandparents represent both the Axis and Allies, and to all of them, there is a lot of pain associated with that period. Part of the reason I started this site was so that I could explore this area of history, and because it was such a sensitive topic to so many of my family members. Now none of my family were members of the German armed forces, but that simple fact doesn't mean they are innocent of war crimes, nor does that fact that some of them were on the Allied side mean they were innocent. Their individual actions during the war dictated their accountability, not their nationality. Terrible things happened during the war, we have to realize that and realise that those were difficult times for all.

    As for your post first post:

    Yitzak, please don't post comment like this. After all isn't it generalizations like this that create racism and the other horrible aspects of racism?

    This type of comment is completely inappropriate, if I see this again I will ban you from the these Forums.

    I have found that people who are unfamiliar with history tend to generalise about the events. They do things like say that all Germans and Japanese were criminals, and that all Allied soldiers were not. The truth is somewhere in between. It's because he is studying history that he comes to this site and clarify that area in between.

    [ 26 May 2002, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: Otto ]
     
  4. Otto

    Otto Rested & Resupplied with MREs. Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    hear, hear.. great post Walt
     
  5. Yan

    Yan Member

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    His views are documented with evidence and primary sources, and he has a few books to back him up. What is your source for saying he is wrong?

    Please, don't compare story tellers to real historians.

    As I said, the books "The German Army and Genocide" and Omer Bartov's work, do a simple search on amazon.com and you will find all your looking for. As well take a look at "Through Hell for Hitler" and "War without Garlands" many of the Wehrmachts crimes are listed and spoken about by those that were there and took part in them.
     
  6. Yan

    Yan Member

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    The comparison has been made and stands true for the most part, now, exactly what kind of 'tactics' did the Red Army infantryman deploy that were unheard of in the west?
     
  7. Yan

    Yan Member

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    I'll answer this with a simple quote: "Some people say that most Germans were innocent, I would say they were accomplices. As a soldier I was an 'accomplice'." pg. 133 "War without Garlands - Operation Barbarossa 1941/42"
     
  8. WALT

    WALT Member

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    Hello Yan. Your post makes an excellent point, and its one that would be hard to disagree with. But I belive is is fair to say that many average men of Germany were called to fight early in the War who were not Nazie's. They went because they were forced to. If they would have refused to wear the uniform, what would have happened to them? What would have happened to their families? I dont know the answer to these questions. I can understand how a German could have gotton caught up in the swell of National pride as Germany moved to rebuild her Army and Navy in the thirty's, but not relizing that as the Nazie's gained more and more controll, that later would come the death camps and all the horrible things the Nazie's stand for .....What choise would he have then?...A soldier has few oppitions, no matter what Country he's from. The only flaw with my own arugument that I can see is that Hitlers pre-war & early war speeches made it clear that he thought the German people were better than everybody else, and that he intended to wage a war against the rest of the world if it suited him. I admitt I dont know much about the German Army. I may be wrong on all counts. Thats why I like the Forum. To share info, but mostly to learn.
     
  9. Yan

    Yan Member

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    I won't say that your point doesn't make it's own point well enough but at the same time remember how many people in Germany did the following: ran away, desserted to other nations, helped Jews and others who needed helping, became spies for the allies, and so on and so forth. Yes, there were plenty of ways out, I'd say the first one was the least harmful of the lot.
     
  10. WALT

    WALT Member

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    You make a good point Yan. It must have taken grate courage for those who did leave, to do so.
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Member

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    HI Yan: Let me rephrase what I had written before. When I wrote "unheard of" tactics I was refering to the fact that so many Germans were taken prisoner and how few were actually released, I didnt mean to sound like they were using new tactics that others didnt. When you are fighting for your homeland warfare is brought to a new level, it becomes more personal and you are driven by fury, fear and rage to do things that you normally wouldnt do. I believe that some in the German army fought the same way i the final days. The way you conduct yourself in combat is different when your fighting on someone elses homeland than on your own. Sorry for the confusion.
     
  12. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Yitzak, welcome aboard. There no need for finger pointing and no room for saying something negative about someones opa. The man did his service as he saw fit--no more no less.

    You might think I am somekind of neo-nazi--but I aint ;) I like to study the German military in ww2 is all.

    I hope you will have an open mind on the things posted here, as all others do. I am friends with Isrealis, and totally side with them in their struggles with the terrorists and the murderers of innocent Isreali Civilians.

    If you see this--I would like to have a private chat with you--take care--Carl.
     
  13. Yan

    Yan Member

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    Yes, in the first days, weeks, months of the war atrocities against POW's were committed by both sides. The Red Army was fighting for its survival and for the survival of their families, friends, and people as a whole. Of course the fighting on the Eastern Front cannot be compared to that of the Western, Italian, or African fronts.
     
  14. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    I really do not care if my grandfather did or did not do bad things during the war. I know he did them following orders, not by his own account.

    He served his country and paid a high price for it! He saw many of his friends and even his two brothers get killed by the bolsheviks. There is a lot of suffering in wars for everybody!

    And you, Yitzak, better make no coments at all because I am not a patient person. I would have a lot to tell about your people...

    I am sorry if my words harmed somebody (those ones who I already know and respect)...
     
  15. Doc Raider

    Doc Raider Member

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    I'm sure if any of us were put under the terrible circustances brought fourth in war, we too might find ourselves commiting acts that the world, and in later years even ourselves, might consider terrible.
     
  16. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    Doc is absolutely correct. We cannot judge what our grandfathers did because we were not there. War is hell plain and simple and all of us cannot predict how we would react or behave.

    I personally have not witnessed what my grandfather did but I will not judge him based on what others did. Yes, he served in the Waffen SS. Yes he did condone the shooting of Russian prisoners. Yes, he was a model citizen after the war. So I judge him on what I have seen, not on what antognists have sterotyped.

    Friedrich is correct, do not attack us or our relatives. I am sure we can debate what the Jews could have done to prevent or minimize the holocaust but hindsight is 20/20, isn't it.

    Whew! This is about as serious as I have gotten here.
     
  17. Yan

    Yan Member

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    If you know he has condoned the shooting of unarmed POW's, then he is not innocent. And pray tell, what could have Jews have done to prevent or minimize the holocaust? Considering the fact that the holocaust was the first and so far only of its kind, I would have to say nothing.
     
  18. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    Didn't say he was innocent. I am sure if the US was fighting a war as brutal as it was in the East, there would have been more incidents involving shooting of prisoners. My point was that the environment dictates how we react and therefore I can understand. Hindsight dictates I may not agree but I can understand. As for the killing of Jews or civilians, you are stereotyping and that is what causes problems.
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Member

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    If you want brutal check out the Pacific campaign. Any in depth readingwill tell you that was not a "civilized" war. The Japanese commited many acts of brutality against Allied soldiers. What you wont read about is that after awhile we tended to treat the Japs the same way just on a much smaller scale. Be assured that the US Army as a whole was not innocent of brutality.
     
  20. Doc Raider

    Doc Raider Member

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    Right! There is an issue of LIFE magazine that shows a beautiful woman writing a letter next to a skull. The caption reads something like "Betty writes her boyfriend a thankyou letter for the Jap skull that he sent her from the Pacific." Vets have told me about taking skulls, gold teeth, and the fact that neither side took too many prisoners. It's not the scale of the Eastern front, exactly, but the Japs/US treated eachother alot like the Nazis/Soviets treated eachother.
     
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