Merkel Apparently Fears Devastating Defeat of the Ukrainian Army

What excuses, I have nothing to excuse atm. - but I will gladly come back to you if I have something to confess, you are very friendly it is noted... You are a priest ?

Nope ......as he said this: 'We are forced to begin the work to bring Crimea back into Russia'. Seldom I agree with politicians and certainly not with Putin, but this seems one of his truer sayings.

 

Forced? Oh I guess some one was holding a gun to Russia telling them to violate past treaties and steal the land.... Russia was never forced to do anything, They merely have a tendency to attack smaller nations to make them selves feel good.

 

That very well be the truth (which I never denied btw),however I know of other nation(s) that attacked many more countries.....

I will dig up a list of wars or regime changes later maybe.

 

Please explain why Russia was forced to take Crimea? If they made the gas deal with Ukraine I cannot see why there was not a chance to make a deal to continue the deal of the Soviet military base there. Then there is no good reason to do what they did. The only reason was to continue the power politics a.k.a. Hitler´s way to deal things.

 

There is this random attack on CNN from left field, although the post you quoted had a link to a BBC article, with that article referring to a Russian TV documentary....

Then you started to make excuses stating to the effect "it was only a contingency plan!"

Then you focused on the word "Forced", and once again are showing the degree to which you have bought into Novo-Soviet propaganda.

And now you are making excuses based on assumed transgressions of others (real or not). Regardless, of which, two wrongs do not make a right.

The degree to which you are willing to bend over to accomodate a regime to which you claim to have no allegiance is quite remarkable.

 

I don´t have allegiance to any regime, where did you get that from However it seems some on here are fans of the Kiew regime, to each his own. But leave me out of this please... I am not political, but if you wanna fight for the regime, why not go to Poroshenko&Co. - he will be glad abaut more cannonfodder.

I find it funny tho, how you come to your conclusions....

Also even more funny you guys say Russian stuff is all propaganda and lies, but when it suits you it´s suddenly true - funny bad but also kinda sad, as on other issues people are so clever and informed on this board.

Further when Russian media themselves tell negative things about Putin, then it seems certain freedom of speech there exists, which further exposes your tries on demonizing them (but you have permission to continue here - as the more you reveal - the better this shows hypocrisy for the neutral readers)

 

Your postings don't reflect that.

It's the logical conclusion to draw based on your postings on the issue to date.

Please point out one. I don't think any of the rest of us view the Ukrainian government past or present as a paragon of virtue. However they aren't the one breaking treaties and taking over lands that belong to other countries in violation of international law and using questionable votes and outfight lies to justify it.

Again your postings to date indicate otherwise. I'll admit that there are a couple of other possiblities that I can think of but they are even less praiseworthy.

Interesting that you find it funny that we come to conclusions based on fact and logic. Guess it's not surprising since you have proved yourself totally incapable of presenting your position in such a maner.

It might be if that's what was said. What has been said is that Russian material is untrustworthy especially since much of the availalbe evidence indigates that Putin and company have been lying about much of what is going on and since all most all the media is controled by the state there is essentialy one source on the Russian side of things. On the other side there are a number of independent sources. Now a lot of what has been published on both sides is propaganda it's just that the Russian side rellies heavily on lies and fallacies for theres. That said I wouldn't be surprised if a fact or two made it into the Russian side of things. Almost impossible for it not to. Please note that on a number of occasions we have shown that your post contained verifiyable fallacies yet you have seldom admited to that. Nor to the logical fallacies either explicitly or implicitly contained with in them.

Also note that if a person says A is true then later says not A is true, especially when talking about their reason for doing something it really doesn't matter which if either is true they have established the fact that they are not trustworthy. Putin and the Russian governement are in that position at this point. Sonce their previous position seemed to be one designed to show them in the most favoreable light it's also not unreasonable to assume their current one is closer to the thruth.

There are still a few independent Russian media sources. Even so they are under considerable pressure. That's taken into account in rating the freedom of speach and freadom of the press in Russia. Those few are noteworthy and because publishing critical information about Putin and his regime is very risky said reports at the very least merit a closer look. The rest of the media pretty much parrots the governement postion so is hardly worth considering as an independent source. No hypcrisy just logic and fact and reasoned analysis. I take it you aren't familar with those though.

 

See I have no evidence that Russia is a regime, I have evidence that KIEW is a regime. So I am against KIEW because I don´t like regimes. There is not much more to say. Think what you want, I don´t care. Also as I pointed out, NO ONE here is in favour for the rebels. I am the only one and it won´t change until I get some proof that they are to blame. To this point, I don´t have seen it, to the contrary (see my list above, fiction - fact which turned out in my favour)

If you think I am pro Russian, I am generally not, don´t like them *that* much, but if they supported their people to resist the regime, I am ok with that totally.

Also you can read what you want that I didn´t write and twist words..... That´s your phantasy (or ideology?) painting something in your mind it seems
If you have first hand accounts from Russians regime or live there and had to suffer from this, I like to hear it (but not hearsay as usual) SO most of you are Russians, right?


Well I will try to ask some Russians in the next day, how bad the dictatorship is over there

 

??? Regime = government. There is some implication of authoratarian government but there's as much evidence or more for the Russian government being authoritarian as there is for the Ukrainian one. I'll admit the previous Ukrainian was tending toward the authoritarian Russian model with the Moscows blessings and support. Of course that's also why it is now the "previous" regime.

I'm not at all sure what you think "regime" means but there is as much or more evidence that the Russian government is authoritarian as there is that the Ukrainian one is. If you can't see it that speaks to your biases and not the data.

That's because it is quite evident they are simply pawns in a Russian power play at best, many of the so called "rebels" indeed appear to be Russian soldiers. Furthermore Russia quite clearly initiated a land grab in violation of international treaties and formented a violent confronation when there were very good reasons to believe that violence could be avoided and the needs of the Ukrainian people met. In a case where one side is so clearly in the wrong it's hardly surprising to see a rather one sided position on the part of our members. There are other cases especially in regards to WWII where you will see similar situations.

To blame for what? In any case we have supported our position(s) with facts and logic for the most part you haven't. I don't remember seeing any "fiction - fact" list from you much less one in your favor perhaps you could repost it or point it out.

Your postings are definitly pro Russian. It's pretty clear that Putins regime is aimed at making Russia more powerful not supporting "their people". Even if they were such actions would justify quite a few countries invading each other or stirring up revolts. Everybody in Europe could use that as an excuse to do it to the US for instance. There are Ukrainian speakers in Russia as well are there not so that means the Ukrain is justified in starting revolts and sending their army in to Russia to support them, right?

Did you look at all at the links talking about freedom of the press in Russia? There are first hand accounts there, others have been posted on this thread. Your are good at ignoring them though.

That would be what is refered to as "anecdotal" evidence it is of limited value (although much better than opinions which you normaly seem to rely on). If you want me to go into the problems with such data I am willing to.

 

Thanks LWD, it is strange how different the opions here is to other forums, where it seems much more balanced or even in favour of Russia. And I see that it is of course pretty stupid to inform anyone. So I will stop at this point until there is really something to report. You would be in the minority on other forums (NO not Russian ones I can´t speak it). Can I take 1 or 2 of your quotes and post them int he more balanced forum with you as copyright holder ? I want to hear of others support your opinion not only here.

Also I see again anything I post is not valid, rubbish or "anecdotal" evidence, which can be said about you guys sources too. This is a waste of time totally I try this time to really stay out of here.

In fact this is the most one sided forum/online community I have seen on this issue.

 

Not at all. The problem of course is that you haven't really informed us of much. Supply some facts and logic and you might convince someone. Keep reapeating Russian propaganda and supporting it only with opinions and you won't.

I wouldn't be surprised at all about that. There are forums that are pro communist and pro Nazi as well and my opinions would clasho with many such forums as well.

That would fall under the fair use clause even without my OK. Posting a link to this forum and/or the threads might be worthwhile as well.

Well we have posted evidence that shows where a number of your points were based on incorrect information and others where the logic was at best convoluted and at other times fallacious. A fact and a logical argument are worth a lot more than a mere opinon. As for anecdotal evidence it has some merit but it's pretty low on the list. If you have ever looked into how to conduct a poll or a survey you know that it takes some effort to get independent samples and enough of them. Asking people you know pretty much guarantees that the responses won't be independent and indeed will be only valid for a certain subset of the population and then there's the question of sample size and the problems with just how questions and answers are worded. That's why studies like the Freedom of the Press one have some considerable merit. They still have biases especially if their results are extrapilated but they form a pretty decent base line for certain thingss. If you look at a number of simlar such surveys that are independent and they come to the same conclusions then you have a pretty strong position (unless of course there is a systematic bias at work). I've acutally been hopeing you would present a decent argument in favor of your position, so far however you haven't even come close. I've even suggested what is needed but you certainly haven't heeded my suggestions.

Indeed one could say that about them. In a few cases one would be correct but not in most of the ones we've presented. Some of them have other flaws as well but I've yet to see you try to invalidate them by presenting facts and logic as counters.

Does that point to this forum being unusual or your choice of forums being rather insalur? Hard to tell from here. I wouldn't think it would be the case in most forums dominated by those from North America and Europe though.

 

The communities I mean are Western Europe ones. One of it I would say more "right" the other more "left" others mixed....But I think left/right thinking is bullshit anyway.

I read media mostly from Austria, Switzerland, Germany, sometimes Dutch ones too. Also Guardian or Telegraph / UK.

 

Where do you get that we´re are Fans of the Kiew regime? Nobody has said that. You just try to paint us black because you don´t see us any other way. You are not political, you are just keeping those blinkers to make sure you don´t see anything else. And if we don´t agree, we are Kiew fans. You are definitely food for Göbbels etc because you keep everyone who does not agree the enemy. You simply don´t have other views , it´s black or white, you´re my friend or you´re my enemy. Do you even notice it yourself?

 

Well I only paint YOU guys black because YOU paint ME black .... *SIGH*

 

That's because all most all you post are opinions. Try making a well reasoned argument for a change. Of course in this case it's hard to do. The facts are clear:
1) Russia broke an international treaty by taking Crimea.
2) Russia broke a treaty with the Ukraine by taking the Crimea.
3) Russia broke the rules governeing members of the United Nations by taking Crimea.
4) Russia not just instegated but activly participated in the military action that seperated the Crimea from the Ukraine and made it part of Russia.
5) Russia again instegated and participated (indeed seems to be the main military force) in the conflict in the Eastern Ukraine.
6) Russia threatned and persued violence when it was far from clear that it was needed.

There's pretty compelling evidence that Russia was an active participant in the previous Ukrainian governments reverseal fo their positoin with respect to the EU in spite of the desires of the Ukrainian people.

Again we've all acknowledge that the government of the Ukraine was hardly a paragon of virtue (although even their Moscows shadow looms large).

 

Ok let's take another tact. Focus on just one item.
Bund, One statement you have made repeatedly is that you don't think the Ukrainian government is "legitimate". Yet even though you have been asked on a number of occasions you have yet to say why. That is in contrast to a number of post that have made a case for the legitamacy of the Ukrainian governmet. So let's see you make a case for your position, if you can.

 

Really? You are going to try to blame us?!?

Let's re-examine the original post.

You refer to the "Kiew Regime" although you are 1) Discussing this on an English-speaking Forum 2) Well aware of the Nazi association by using that name for that city. 3) Well aware of the correct English name for that city "Kiev" 4) Have no difficulty typing the letter "v" in other contexts. 5) Have been corrected on this before. 6) The very German article you refer to, has succeeded in their translation. What's your excuse?

If you've mastered enough English to correctly use the urban "Ukies" then I'd say you're hardly new to the language, although you try to play yourself out as such.

Now you are trying to play for sympathy, when all we have asked for is facts. The only reason you feel that you get painted black, is not because we're mean, nasty, horrible little trolls getting paid to denigrate one side or the other. (in what context have I heard the term Кремлядь, I wonder...)

The reasons you feel you're getting painted black, is because you repeatedly
1) Elect to use a language and terms that are categorically insulting to a wide variety of people. From elected officials in democratic states, to established news media, to Ukrainians that support their current government against Russia's deliberate attempt to destabilize the Ukraine (i.e. the majority).
2) Elect to post links to opinion pieces, and try to pass them off as facts.
3) Claim to be unbiased, yet use the same vitriollic language (see point 1) as the obviously biased RT.
4) claim "Elsewhere on the internet there are places that I visit, and the majority there agrees with me..." Which is about as persuasive and useful an argument as a soggy paper towel. Furthermore, it reeks of desperation.
5) Dismiss out of hand sources of far less dubious nature, than some of your "sources".
6) Fail to respond in a manner which persuades. Vitriol will never persuade anyone, and is only marketed towards the already converted. Painting others black, merely because you feel victimised is rather childish, especially when all that has been asked for is that you support your statements with facts. Not opinions.


It just isn't credible, that you have looked at all the information, weighed the veracity of the various sources, and reached an unbiased conclusion, which you so often claim (then link to RT, or a conspiracy theorist).

You declined to comment further about the OSCE.

You didn't actually link to anything official written by the CFR itself, but instead an article published in Foreign Affairs, which actually regularly has articles by various authors from various parties, colours, attitudes, and opinions. I think you should probably go out and buy yourself a real hardcopy of the magazine, you might be surprised at the variety of discourse contained therein. Of course, unlike the random semi-coherent musings of conspiracy theorists, you'll have to cope with actual scholars concisely presenting their own (admittedly learned) opinions, interpretations and understandings of current events.

Just to be clear on this, the previous paragraph: Just because an article is published in Foreign Affairs, does not mean that the opinion itself is endorsed by CFR. It just means that the opinion is interesting enough on it's own merit per se, to be published. Many occasion, I've seen several articles taking very different stands on an issue, in the same magazine.

In every printed magazine, it contains the following blurb:

"Foreign Affairs ... will tolerate wide differences of opinion. Its articles will not represent any consensus of beliefs. What is demanded of them is that they shall be competent and well informed, representing honest opinions seriously held and convincingly expressed... It does not accept responsibility for the views in any articles, signed or unsigned, which appear in its pages. What it does accept is the responsibility for giving them a chance to appear."

 

As long as you say we are on Kiew regime side you are totally starting it. Where do you get it? playing martyr is the next part of the game.

 

How about this, Link us all the other forums to which are talking about the events in the Ukraine. I'm curious as to their opinions and what fact's they have used to justify their opinion/views.

 

We criticized the Bush government for Iraq and possible plans for Iran,

[SIZE=small]http://www.ww2f.com/topic/8107-bush-and-iran/page-2[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]Nobody was saying we were capitalistic pigs. Now as we criticize Putin for arming people, we are criticized for being Kiew supporters, Russian haters and EU freaks. Like Prince sang " Does not compute".... [/SIZE]