Merkel Apparently Fears Devastating Defeat of the Ukrainian Army

Re: Flight MH17, the US gov simply wants you to believe, even they show no evidence at all (other than "social media lol) And if questioned for it, the blonde gets bitchy...she isn´t a very good lyer too. Her body language gives her away.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRvINebeok


But I am sure that KAI PETRI will present the evidence, as he claims....and he might be my hero then.

 

I don't see it that way. These people of Russian heritage are living in the Ukraine, a sovereign nation. They took up arms against their own government. Any government has the right to secure its own territory.

 

Nazi German had that right, too then ? But I respect your views on the matter as long it stays objective. Also it wasn´t "their" government, as I pointed out the Kiew regime is not a rightful one. Please follow some leads I gave in the "Russian navy" threat and maybe wait 1-2 days of research before answering.

 

You do accept that Ukraine is a nation? I often dislike my own government, that doesn't mean I get to secede and join Canada or Mexico. I can protest or I can move, but I can't declare the territory I live in is now part of a neighboring state.

 

I beg your pardon?!?

It was rightfully elected in an OSCE observed election. Both the parliament and presidential elections. If you doubt that, you have to read the OSCE report. That makes it the legal government.

You are about as far from "neutral" on this issue as you can possibly get.

 

UKR story is quite complicated - it is a bit like balcans. A "Flickenteppich" (fun name Austria Hungary was given), so to speak. But if your language and culture is surpressed in a regime chance I might have sympathy with those that do not want to live under this rule.

I will change my mind, eg. if Putin acts agressive (without that Nato starts agression) or if it is proven that MH17 was shot down by Russia (on purpose) or Russia refuses to solve the conflict peacefully. We will see, if I need to change my POV.

More facts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdQKdoFiVXw


Also even most of the Western UKR people do not want this war, here is the proof.: UKR mothers refuse their sons go to regime army to die. ( big shame to the peple here on this board who support that crime over there btw. warmongers for energy companies you can be proud of that)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3_uEJg9cME

This is my last posts on the "past" of UKR conflict, this thread was meant for new developments....

 

As the Russians oppressed the Ukraine, Poland, Latvia, .... etc

With the historic forced migrations... and deliberate immigration policies.

Your caveats are worthless, as you basically refuse to admit the legitimacy of the OSCE, and already accuse NATO of interference, furthermore refuse to accept any of the very strong circumstantial evidence so far reported surrounding the downing of MH17.

As to which of the two countries has a legitimate government, you are aware that Putin has been in power in the Kremlin since 31st of December, 1999? That's 16 years... And the constitution has been changed, the term of office being extended from 4 years to 6, allowing him to sit until 2018, and stand for yet another manipulated election.

The OSCE had this to say regarding the last Russian Presidential election:
"The final report by the OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR) on Russia’s presidential election on 4 March 2012 concludes that the contest was clearly skewed in favour of one of the contestants and recommends measures to ensure a more balanced process." (emphasis mine).

Contrasts rather radically with the report on the Ukraine's election.

The OSCE had this to say regarding Russian Duma Elections, held on 4th December, 2011 (from the OSCE's Final Report Executive summary):
"During voting, election officials were observed to be dedicated and experienced and procedures were followed overall. However, the quality of the process deteriorated considerably during the count, which was characterized by frequent procedural violations and instances of apparent manipulation, including several serious indications of ballot box stuffing. Result protocols were not publicly displayed in more than one-third of polling stations observed. Throughout election day, observers also reported a number of instances of obstruction to their activities, in particular during count and tabulation."

Once again, my own emphasis.

And again, the contrasts with the Report from the Ukraine are rather clear, and yet you continue to denigrate and dismiss one correctly elected national government, in favour for another one which has manipulated it's own election, as well as a history of threatening its neighbours, never mind the oppression of it's own citizens, journalists, NGO's and the lack of free speech. This trend has been clear to anyone following Russian politics for the past two decades. It is not something that has sprung forth from the current Conflict in the Ukraine.

 

@ GS: If you refuse to watch / look up all the videos and links I provided in this and the other thread, than I would say: We agree to disagree and leave it at that, ok? Cause I provided a wealth of stuff already. If you say you do not understand the language of some of them, you can still look up alternative sources in your language, that´s not my responsibility. If you chose to believe the "official" story is also not my problem....even if evidence points that it isn´t quite right. Well he who does not look, can´t see.

You can also quote other Nato / western sources (maybe daily mail, too?) I know many of these sources aren´t correct (on purpose or not I can´t say), so it makes no sense to quote them. It was proven beyond doubt and some of the proof I posted here and in the Russian navy thread already. I can not do this over and over again you understand this, I hope ? If not we just disagree , full stop.

But I am nice and here are 2 more links which dissects media lies and do more serious reports:

http://www.nachdenkseiten.de/?paged=3
http://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/

 

Nice assessment Von, agreed.

 

So you also want to come over ? You are welcome, the more enemy the more honour Cause as I see it "Von" wants Europe destroyed again if he supports sending weapons and troops. I bet you both aren´t European and far away from the danger, right? They you can speak easily, the blind lead the blind.

I cannot believe it: The wind seems really to change, one of German main media, reports about the Nazis in Kiew, as well quote the EU chief, that he wants no weapons there but a peaceful solution. As well he says some US politicians don´t seem to have made their mind up and missing information on the real situation.... (he means "the hawks" like MC Cain etc.):

http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/praesident-des-europaparlaments-im-focus-online-interview-martin-schulz-wir-machen-uns-nicht-nur-laecherlich-wir-verlieren-an-einfluss_id_4460686.html

http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/politik-und-gesellschaft-kiews-braune-helfer_id_4440704.html

 

You have not stated what your grounds are for disbelieving the OSCE reports. Zip. Zero. Nada.



Why, because it is rather difficult to do, when Russia itself participates:
The OSCE has 57 participating States from Europe, Central Asia and North America:

• Albania
• Austria
• Belgium
• Canada
• Czech Republic
• Finland
• Germany
• Hungary
• Italy
• Latvia
• Luxembourg
• Monaco
• Norway
• Romania
• Serbia
• Spain
• Tajikistan
• Turkmenistan
• United States

• Andorra
• Azerbaijan
• Bosnia and Herzegovina
• Croatia
• Denmark
• France
• Greece
• Iceland
• Kazakhstan
• Liechtenstein
• Malta
• Montenegro
• Poland
• Russian Federation
• Slovakia
• Sweden
• the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
• Ukraine
• Uzbekistan

• Armenia
• Belarus
• Bulgaria
• Cyprus
• Estonia
• Georgia
• Holy See
• Ireland
• Kyrgyzstan
• Lithuania
• Moldova
• Mongolia
• Netherlands
• Portugal
• San Marino
• Slovenia
• Switzerland
• Turkey
• United Kingdom

You can't pigeon hole it into your propaganda about NATO.

 

I know Von nor I do not want Europe destroyed. I keep hoping a truce will hold. Who knows the true situation, Commanders in theater or back room dealing political hacks? It is spinning out of control. I will check some more facts or watch this conversation. Good Luck.

 

Sorry I was only a bit upset on the topic cause the situation is not far away where relatives from me live. Look at a map eastern Germany isn´t that far away from the area (UKR). However I am westerner I don´t want our side (Europe) to be involved at all there, I want to that people sit down and talk about the situation and find a peaceful solution. That´s all.

 

True tbh I really have not the time to look into this now, it might be right and ok. But even if everything with the elections etc. where ok there, obviously it spiraled out of control later. Weren´t the Nazis also "elected" they led Ger to destruction. Same seems to be true in Kiew.

Or are you thinking that every gov keeps it´s promises after they are elected (rightfully) ? If yes, you just seem to have too much faith in politicians. But maybe in your country this is the case, but I can asure you it isn´t the case here.

Also I appologize if my words were a bit too upset


BTW: I am not a fan of Merkel, but why does MC Cain does insult her, if she goes on a peace mission ? He doesn´t like that the EU finally takes things in the hands it seems....

"Mc Cain was only the beginning, now the Americans shoot at Merkel":
http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/waffen-fuer-die-ukraine-mccain-war-nur-der-anfang-jetzt-nehmen-die-amerikaner-merkel-unter-beschuss_id_4460403.html

"If the Americans (or onaly the "hawks"??) want war with Russia, please send your soldiers to Alaska not to Europe and leave us out of this"

Good to see most Brits are on our side, thanks to them as usual:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/uk-wont-accept-russian-separatist-rebel-gains-in-ukraine-says-hammond-10031106.html
(check the comments)

 

Nobody wants war with Russia. If somebody would merely back up the Ukrainians instead of another show of this cowardly "Peace in our time" crap, the Russians would back down.

 

Nonsense! Those fascist dictators from Kiew obviously provoked their neighbour.

For example when the Ukrainian forces in the Crimea deliberately locked themselves into their Barracks, forcing the Russians to take control of the port and airport, and other facilities.

 

All of you : please keep this gentle and do not cross any lines. It would be a paradox if Merkel and Hollande achieved a cease fire and if you start your own littlle battle on this very thread.

 

Haven't followed this closely, situation is confusing at best, that spokeperson about the downing of the plane was obviously unprepared or incompetent, which doesn't mean there was no evidence but certainly weakens the case. The forced migrations sponsored by the communist regime have also made the boundaries unclear.

The basic issue seems to me the Kiev administration, while "democratically elected", is also as corrupt as they come and sitting on a huge debt (but IMO that makes them "modern capitalists" not nazis), they tried to unload their problems on others by basically blackmailing the west with "if we go Putin will take over so you have to back us". It's not troops that were initially needed to defuse the situation when Putin started using the debt as an excuse for interference but dollars and euros, The west refused to foot the bill (no reason they should have except spiking Putrin's guns).

That sort of behaviour by corrupt western "minor countries" politicians is al old trick, IMHO one of the reasons behind the current European economic crisis is that "trick" is no longer guaranteed to work as it was during the cold war, the richer countries are more willing to take the risk the unrest the economic collapse of a minor player will produce.

Now the guns are out and chancellor Merkel is obviously worried the government's troops will go the same way the Iraq's soldiers against ISIS, surprising things may happen, no idea how strong Ukranian nationalism actually is, but corrupt "civilian" governments usually make for poorly motivated soldiers. Let's hope we will never know if she was right to worry.

I believe Putin is using nationalism to distract his people from his internal woes, that too is one of the oldest tricks in the book (and unfortunately it works more often than not because of the way humans are "wired").

 

the previous separatist leader had put the video on their site with the known smoke trail behind him, and he enjoying himself saying that they had shot down an Ukrainian plane. Once it turned out they had shot the malaysian plane down, the video was removed but many had been able to save it for later proof.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/07/18/smoking-guns-russian-separatists-shot-down-malaysian-plane/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydx92yw9Qa0

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696389/That-blast-look-smoke-Sick-boast-laughing-rebels-saw-MH17-hit-missile-hours-leader-boasted-We-warned-not-fly-sky.html

 

The only accident seems that they could not handle their systems well enough to find out if the plane flying in 11 kilometers was a civil plane or a military plane. Anyway they boast about shooting down planes and in one take the separatist leader is seen with the smoke trail of the Malaysian plane behind him. He took full responsibility then, but later said he did not take responsibility and he did not do it. That is once he found out it was a civil plane.