Monte Cassino Question

You have both good arguments! Interesting is, that if you will look at the 6th of Februar 44, the 135th US infantery took the Monte Calvario away. It was a key position from where you have the overview over the city of Cassino. The Wehrmacht was in a bad position and your Generals didn´t see the chance to make their way to the Route 6. Next day the the Monte Calvario was German again and this game happened 2 times. It was a real good but unused chance to get to the Route 6. I´ll add a map where you can see the positions of your troops and in which small space the Wehrmacht was. The Monte Calvario is called the" Höhe 593". What are your opinions?

Regards

Ulrich

( Map is from the Book " Die Schlacht von Monte Cassino" Janusz Piekalkiewicz )

 

think of the ruins of Cassino the Fallshirm could literally bury itself the 8cm mortar could be used as a high angled weapon just to plaster anything across the street if need be. close in fighting grenades and mg's. a few Stug III's were buried in rubble just for the defesnive AT weaponry which wa sorely lacking the 1st Fallschirm div. there was no rocket fire in useage by the paras as to the case of nebelwerfer as far as I know.

 

One of the problems with focusing on Route 6, the Liri Valley, & Cassino are the mountains that over look the Liri for some 30 kilometers. The Appeninnes to the NE & the Arunci to the SW. That is the Liri Valley is a guantlet between the two mountain ranges that is barely the width of the range of a common howitzer. Capture Cassino & the surrounding heights and two kilometers down the road you are overlooked by another set of steep rugged heights.

Once past the Arunci range there are other lesser hills to the SW of Route 6 and the Appeninnes continue to the NE as rugged and high as before.

Exactly why the Allied army was focused on the narrow point of Cassino for the winter is a important question. Once the US 2d corps & French Corps attacked thru the Arunci mountains & the Eighth Army attacked further east the German defense crumbled in a few weeks. Why this did not happen sooner is important to understanding the campaign. The pop histories invariablly get hung up on the details of the Cassino battle & lack the larger view of the over all campaign and the other more important battles.

 

I read the official history of the 26th Battalion 2nd new Zealand division and i,m sure i read a comment in there about getting hit with them when they captured the railway station in the 3rd battle of Cassino.

I also read a book which stated that Germans had Nebelwerfer at cassino and most of them were taken out by artillary.

I am trying to find where i read it.

 

I know when the second battle for cassino happened we were asked to attack because Anzio was in trouble and they want ed to try and tie down German resources and i can understand that but the third battle was tragic in my opinion by the time the battle started the fighting at Anzio had died down so there wasn,t a pressing need to launch the third battle.

If the Germans didn,t launch another major attack at Anzio we didn,t need to attack at cassino we could have sat out the winter and then attacked in the better weather and instead of the 4th battle as we know it involving 13 divisions it could have included the 2nd New Zealand division and 4th Indian division which would have boosted the number of divisions to 15 instead the New Zealand division and 4th Indian were thrown away in futile frontal assaults om narrow frontages.

To think that the 2nd New Zealand division was asked to attack a town concentrating all there forces on a tiny frontage of no more than 1 mile by 1.5 miles while the german defender sat on the high ground directly above us could see every move we made and just rain fire down on us is really hard to believe i feel sorry for the people who were asked to carry out the attack it was never on.

 

Steve,

you´re very close to my opinion on the third battle. I wasn´t at that place in this time but i think it will be logical to try an other strategy after two lost battles, as the WWI mass assault on an well covered and armed enemy. I know it is easy to talk about someones mistake if you weren´t in this situation, but with an good look at the map, there were other opportunities.

Regards

Ulrich

 

there was only the Para mg unit and one para regiment in the ruins of the Cassino town proper there were no nebels available. most likely the 8cm mortars is what was the norm.

a good choice would be to read up on some German accounts you guys, Kesselring brought the Par Div back behind the lines due to shortage of men, arms and supplies it would of been night a tenious effort for Heydrich to have his men and stab even stay in the perimeter as he had asked several weeks earlier before the abbey actually fell if he could withdraw.

 

I have a book Cassino the Hollow Victory by Jogn Ellis and it states on page 201 that the germans had available in the immediate Vicinity for the third battle for cassino

13 Italian assault guns
28 medium anti tank guns
one battery of 10cm parachute guns
one of 7.5cm mountain guns
two batteries of medium guns
three of light
werfer regiment deploying 88 barrels

Quote from book"If necessary the commander at Cassino could also call for supporting shots from Corps and army batteries on and around Monte Cairo and Monte Cifalco.

Another Quote this is from either General heidrich or Colonel Heilmann the commander of 3rd para regiment.

Quote"I knew well that the few men in the front line however gallently they fought could not win the battle alone i now demanded of the artillery a lavish and unrestricted expenditure of ammuntion and even went as far as to harrow them into compassion for the poor infantrymen when i laid down the amount to be expended.

In this battle for Cassino we achieved the great feat for a while at least,superiority of fire,with great skill and by using every possiable mean of communication,the artillery liaison officer with the third parachute regiment succeeded in co ordinating the fire of more and more batteries in our sector and even in integrating the artillery of the division next to us,the heavy machine gun and mine thrower platoons of the division were brigaded and there fire co ordinated in a single,homogeneous fire plan.....The fire plan was gradually broadened to embrace every type of weapon available and even rifles and rifle grenades were allotted specific tasks."

The Germans were throwing a lot more than just 8cm mortars at our people but our soldiers commented on how effective the mortars were they could being brought to bare on a target quickly accuratley and with a high volume of fire and combined with the volume of fire from the MG42 and also accuarcy of the sniper fire all being fired from concealed positions on high ground rifle companies being asked to run across open ground with no tank support were as good as dead it didn,t work in WW1 against machine guns that fired 500-600 rounds per minute there is no way a generation later it was going to work against machine guns that fired 1200 rounds per minute i mean you put three MG42 firing in support of each other you have a rate of fire of 3600 rounds per minute the equvilent volume of fire of a modern day gatling gun a 70-80 strong rifle company trying to cross open ground against that is suicide.

Our commanders handed our infantry to the germans machine gunners on a plate they way they conducted the battle.

 

Hi Erich,

i´ll take a look at the " Tagebuch des OKW" there is a lot of information of the moving of troops at Monte Cassino. I´ll post the result.

Regards

Ulrich

 

please do Ulrich. I firmly beleive there were no nebels in the town of Cassino; if you had 8cm mortars raining down on your body you would think everything of all calibres were being thrown at you, as the old US saying would have it all through Europe it was always 88's firing at you which was nonsense.

again re-read my previous posting NO nebels in the town of Cassino not necessarily on the heights or other areas/vicinity of the battlefield

 

I agree there was none in the town it,s self i misunderstood your post.

 

ok Steve. in the town itself portions of FJR 1, II./FJR 3, engineer Abt. of the Fsch. Div., Fsch. MG Abt. part of Stug Abt 242 as well as some Panzer IV tanks. the terrible Cavendish road diabcle was guarded by Fsch. Rgt. 4, the second abteilung.

 

Thanks for reminding me about Cavandish the only time in the battle we took the germans by suprise and we send tanks with no infantry support.

Can you believe it.

 

it was a total muck up from the very beginning who had the high ground anyway ? FJR 4 did as they pleased it was suicidal for the Sherman crews

 

I agree totally i,ve always had in interest in war because i had family in both wars and it has really stood out for me the power of terrain and weather and the effect it has on battle fields high ground is such a force multiplier in war.

I saw a documentry and they were interviewing germans Paras who fought at Cassino and they said they couldn,t believe the allied generals continuing to try and send people up the hills in there own words they said it was a crime to send those men up the hills.

 

Erich, you´re right! Only change is it wasn´t the II./FJR3 it was the III./FJR.3 and for a short time the FJ MG Abt. was the only unit in the town Cassino.

Steve, the reason for some of the losses of the II. New Zealand Corps was an mistake. As they started their assault on the Monte Cassino on Februar the 13th. nobody told them that the Monte Calvario and the Rocca Janulawas retaken by German III./FJR3. So they thought the Hill was in the hands of the US Army. Deadly mistake.

Regards

Ulrich

 

It was my understanding that is was 2nd battalion 3rd parachute regiment that was in the town when they did the big bombing then other units were drafted in to make up losses and maintain forces.

It states in the book that i have that as many men as possiable mainly from 2/1 parachute regiment and the divisions Pioneer and motorcycle companies were infiltrated into Cassino.

I think they also had men from there machine gun battalion in there.

Also later on 2/115 PG was also bought in i think around 19-20 march with quote from general Heidrich"tonight 2/115PG regiment is moving into cassino and our weakness will be a thing of the past.We will then have to withstand the attacks by the enemys fresh troops tire them out as we did the others then counter attack.The enemys fresh troops who have infiltrated between the town and the abby must be cut off.

I remember reading one of the New Zealand battalion official histories and our guys commented that when they captured a strong point there were germans from different units.

 

It sure was a deadly mistake the more i read about the battle the more it hits home how poorly directed the battle was by the allied generals they did our troops no favours with the decisions they made.

 

Ulrich the II and III Abt. were broken up due to heavy losses, but yes it was the 2nd Abteilung in Cassino town according to the book on Fallschirmrgt. 3.

I have a bit of translated text from Böhlmers account which also verifies this and it is simply amazing to me he was not also killed in the bombing of the little town.

the FallschirmPioneers Abt was CO'd by Leutnant Heinz Austermann much action in the cellars below the town prison to the north and of course the terrible fiasco at the Fish-Markt below Castle Hill. The New Zealanders and the LW paras gave no quarter............ this is now in March of 44