Most important ww2 battle?

MC,

Grim Economic Realities


If you want to know all about ship building etc, try this essay.

...and the loss of Guadalcanal would NOT have isolated Australia!



John.

 

We (America) made 141 carriers during the war... So we could've replaced 12.

 

The trouble is-is that there were too many "Important Battles" to choose from. When I mentioned the death of 6th Army @ Stalingrad as well as the almost death of Army Group Center in the Summer of 44-those in all of the reading I have done about the E/Front-represent to me the most important battles on that side of the battlelines. Now if one is thking about the west side-then battles like the invasion of Normandy and the Battles of the Bulge, Hurtgen Forest and of the Ruhr-certainly more than qualify. I add no "what ifs" like Operation Market Garden since it was not conclusively a success-like hoped.

 

I agree with Mastacheef117, at least from the American point of view. We were untested and the Axis thought the US troops were going to be soft and a push over. Guadalcanal taught the Japs we were there for the long run and their idiotic banzai tactics would never work.

If the allies lost in N Africa, the Germans had the whole middle east and a huge part of the resources in the middle east. In my opinion the British never looked better.

Kesselring pass exposed the weekness of the American training and we never looked back as a fighting force after our failure. It made the difference of Americans being compaired to Italians verses a true force to be reckoned with.

In both battles the Americans grew up.

 

Some interesting posts here.

I for one agree that the engagement in Stalingrad broke the back of the Germans on the Eastern Front, and was a needless engagement at a time where more important objectives could have been accomplished by the 6th, ie the Caucasian oilfields.

El Alamein was mentioned, but I agree with Friedrich that victory by Rommel there in no means would have meant Rommel could have marched into Moscow, especially with the shortages of equipment and supplies that Rommel constantly faced. 3000km is a long way.

Pearl Harbor I definately agree with, Hitlers decleration of war on the United States set in motion production levels that the Wermacht could only dream of.

How about Dunkirk? Although not really a battle, If Hitler had have crushed those troops into the sea it would have severely crippled Britains ability to wage war, and may have ended the War in the West before it even began. What would America have done if both France and Britain surrendered immediately?

 

39th,


"If Hitler had have crushed those troops into the sea it would have severely crippled Britains ability to wage war, and may have ended the War in the West before it even began."


The RN made a successful 'Sea Lion' impossible, even with not a man saved at Dunkirk.




"What would America have done if both France and Britain surrendered immediately?"


in 1940, Nothing.


John

 

I probably didnt say that correctly, as I understand it if the Germans had taken Dunkirk on the 24th/25th of May, then they would have forced the capitulation of over 400,000 men, of both the BEF and the French armies.

My question regarding the United States is more on whether and to what extent they would have been able to wage war against the Germans later on without the British.

 

"My question regarding the United States is more on whether and to what extent they would have been able to wage war against the Germans later on without the British."


Without a doubt, and WON IT!


John.

 

Sorry mate

 

amphibious assaults across the atlantic ? i doubt the us would be so bold. the island of britain was vital to US attempts to form a second front

 

i would say as per von rundstedt ......

Battle of Britain ..... the germans win that they can do sealion and perhaps knock uk out of the war/ obtain peace with all the resources for its industry that it needed like oil rubber etc from uk colonies (tribute along the lines of what the ussr were doing up to barbarossa) with no hostile uk the garrison forces in conquered territory can be massively reduced and those forces depolyed against ussr along with jumping off points from turkey who would undoubtedly have joined axis if uk was knocked out of war and with all of these factors i believe the defeat of ussr wiuld have been a formality

 

While it was vital the North African invasion contained a fair amount of force directly from the US and the US conducted assaults across the Pacific. Probably would not have directly attacked Western Europe however.

As for the BOB a German win was impossible and would not have come close to insuring a successful Sea Lion.

 

whether the germans had a chance of victory or not isnt up for debate the fact is if they had won and acheived sea lion then eurasia was doomed.

why do you believe that luftwaffe air superiority would not have ensured sea lion ? this would enable them to drive the 50-60 destroyers which were held in the channel away ... the main battle fleet was not intended to defeat an invasion it was the destroyers that were meant to do that and do acheive this they were held in the channel ports ...

 

You have to understand that a successful Sealion is pretty much impossible. Sure with the Battle of Britain won the Germans would have air dominance but what they clearly lacked was SEA power. The landings at normandy could have never happened without absolute dominance of both the sea and the air. Furthermore, the normandy landings were given over 2 years of planning and preparing. The sealion operation was given a little over 90 days. Also, the Germans had never in their history conducted an over sea invasion this showed in their intended plan for sealion. The sealion plan was faulty, landing a small number of guys in a long strech of time. The also British had over 400 ships ships waiting to counter this invasion and their home guard numbered 250,000 strong. This invasion was simply not possible.

 

im sure if it hadnt happened you would say that capture of eben emal the offensive thru the ardennes (1940) collapse of france in 6 weeks, evacuation from dunkirk of entire bef plus 100,000 french, british offensive in N africa 1940 (resulted in 250,000 prisioners) sinking of royal oak in scapa flow, pearl harbor, taranto, fall of singapore were all not possible !!!!!

 

STUG 111, look up some of the older posts on WW2F examining Sealion.

 

http://www.ww2f.com/what-if/12141-how-sealion-could-have-been-made-workable.html

http://www.ww2f.com/what-if/21516-operation-sealion-should-have-happened.html

http://www.ww2f.com/what-if/11752-operation-sealion-possible-outcome.html

http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-general/20264-sealion-nazis-ready-face-navy.html

 

Stug,


"amphibious assaults across the atlantic ? i doubt the us would be so bold. the island of britain was vital to US attempts to form a second front"


Wasn't 'Torch' based from the US?

The USA was quite capable of launching an invasion from the '48' against Nth Africa, and from there they could have gone to the south of France, (and Italy) and north from there.

In fact, if you wish to be a bit radical, you could go across to Gibraltar and through a protesting, but impotent, Spain and then north. That landing would have been well established before the Germans could have countered it.



John.

 

I think the only way the Battle of Britain would end was with the Germans pulling out of there air campaign. The British could never be completely defeated in the air, even had the Germans gain some kind of dominance over Britain, they would never achieve the same level of air supremacy that the Allies enjoyed in Operation Overlord, meaning that the invading forces would not be simply facing the home guard, Invasion destroyer guard, or even the RN home fleets, but also bomber command and the fighter wings. Look at what happened at Dunkirk when ships at virtual birth and men and equipment are being unload\loaded when they were attacked by the Luftwaffe.

The Germans never could be able to achieve such dominance in the air or the sea with there planning they were using.