Most important ww2 battle?

Kursk was a furious battle between two equal armys,when kurst battle started the allies have not invaded Italy(Sicilly) yet,until than,the Germans had a bit of an advantage over the RedArmy,Germans slightly pushing the Redarmy closer into Russia.
When the Alllies invaded Italy(Sicilly)Germans were force to send some of the military over to Italy to defend off the Allies,days after the Germans had to give up kursk to the RedArmy.

The Germans were winning over the Red Army(just barly) and the Germans had no intenions over handing back any land gain back to the RedArmy.
The Allied Italy (Sicilly) Invasion caused the Germans to retreat back from kurst.

The Allied Italy(Sicilly) invasion is one of the Important battles of ww2.

 

That's not an unreasonable view point. Although I thought Stalingrad was a part of the Caucus campaign which had already been stopped. Moving more into the Caucus might even have put more in the bag and the German defenses on either side of Stalingrad were weak and that's what lead to the huge losses in Stalingrad. I don't really see how the Germans can strengthen these and free enough troops to reignite the Caucus campaign.

I agree with the latter. However if the Germans were to defeat the Soviets Moscow was one of the more important targets. It's loss doesn't mean the immediate surrender of the Soviets but it does weaken their position considerably.

I'm not convinced that topics like this are fundamentally capable of producing an answer although they often produce some interesting reading. Here's another possibility the WWI battle where Hitler was gassed but survived. If he dies or even is captured or possibly even not gassed then he may never rise to power.

 

Yes you are correct, during the battle of Kursk when the Allies invaded Sicily, Hitler was forced to divert troops from the Russian front and send them to sicily. Manstein was furious at this decision and was forced to withdraw his troops.

However, where I think you are a little off is when you say that these two armies were "equal" and that the Germans were winning the battle. At the outbreak of Kursk the Russians had more men, tanks, aircraft, and Zhukov had set up a very effect set of defenses in the months between the 3rd battle of Kharkov and the launching of the operation.

Furthermore, the german operation itself was extremely simplistic and really disregarded the actual strength of the Russian army thinking that the might of their panzers would just destroy everything in their path. It also depended heavily upon and actually was delayed waiting for early model Panthers and Tigers which as we all know had their problems.

As the attack began on July 5 the southern pincer under manstein began advancing while taking heavy losses. The northern pincer Model did not have as much success as model decided to lead his attack with infranty and have the tanks follow. By July 12 after the battle of Prokhorovka the attack was basically over. The german losses were far more than they could afford and their defeat was guaranteed.

While, troops were diverted to Sicily during the Battle of Kursk, it really did not have that much of an effect on the battle.

 

Yes i agree,with Redarmy having more avlibable equitment and men on hand,than Germans had.
Even though The red Army had more men and aircraft tanks to spare in that battle than Germans did,they were struggling to power over Germans.
I did read/seen that the Russians were using there last resort of men and machines(before the invasion of sicily) if this failed,Germany would have won the battle,correct?

This is what i recall watching months ago,so nothing against the redarmy here.

 

Well the way I understand it no. As I tried to explain above, the Soviets were much better prepared for the battle, with many more resources and defenses. Also in the first couple days it was clear the the objective of the operation was not going to be achieved as Model's northern pincer was pretty much stopped and Manstein was left to fight himself. And by the time of the invasion of Sicily the southen pincer had already taken so many casualties it was clear that the soviets would be victorious.

That is my understanding. Mabye somebody else could support or correct me?

 

I just finished watching that battle documentary, seen it twice,and i was just stating what the program has stated.

It did mention that the Russians did re-dsighn there air craft to advantage themselfs for in low bombing battles with the tiger tanks,witch did help russa alot.
i was not making anything up,it was called the -generals at war program.

 

I think I actually saw that documentary a while ago, and when the allies invaded Sicily on July 10, 1943 Hitler had a conference and decieded to pull troops from the attack and Zitadelle was effectivley "called off" However, by the time of that invasion the Germans had only advanced a few miles and the number of losses they had taken had already basically deemed the operation unwinable for the Germans.

But again mabye a third voice...

However, I will try to argue it from a different perspective. By the time of Kursk the Russians had more resources, were vastly outproducing the Germans industrially, and had been fighting the Germans for over 2 years so by that point they were well apt to German battle tactics. By that time in the war the Germans had no chance in winning especially with the unavoidable invasions of Italy and France by the Allies. So something that might have possibly affected the outcome at Kursk cannot be the most important battle as it is already too late by that point.

 

Battle of Moscow. It proved the Germans could be defeated.

 

I wont argue against Moscow at the moment but I tend not to like it when people give "it proved we could be them" as a reason. I hear that a lot in the Pacific and in Europe: wake island, Guadalcanal, Doodlittle raid, Moscow, etc. In this case of Moscow especially, yes, it was the first major win for the Russians, but it was followed by another whole year of getting their ass kicked until Stalingrad. It wasn't really a major turning point because the Germans kept pushing on and if they had won at Stalingrad they would have proceeded more. My argument about the importance of the Battle of Moscow itself is a few posts up.

 

Indeed for the war in general and the eastern front in particular it wasn't so much any one battle as the cumulative effects of all of them.

 

That's the one i was talking about.
germans without the invasion of the allies of sicily,had plan to fight to the end of the Kursk battle. (possable not winnable).

What gets me connfused is that the program states that the russians sent in there last Huge reserves to fight germans in kursk,just before the allies invaded sicily.
Would not make russia on it's last leg? That's why i have trouble with understanding you're answers!

 

Well I watched it quite a while ago and I don't remember exactly what it said, so I take your word for it. So yes the Soviet defenses at kursk might have been one of their last big reserves, I mean it was the biggest tank battle in history, and if they had lost it they would have been in huge trouble. However, i was just a last stand that was very unlikely to be lost (I mean they knew of this invasion almost 3 months prior to its lauching and were preparing ever since) And then there reasons of the incompetant batle plan etc. of the germans that I explained earlier.

 

yikes, don't take my word for it,you guys are more right than i am,just stating the program,that does not mean the program is right and you're wrong. just confussed me that's all.

well if you say Russia was prepared from the very start of the battle,than it seems russia would have won.

 

Real battle of Britain actually never took place as it was ended before land invasion took place. Losses to Luftwaffe were minor compared to losses that it suffered in the east. Very simple.

I'll have to go with this one .

Again, all true...and let's not forget it's the center of Soviet web-like rail network. And without railroad (with American wagons and locomotives), Soviets are very well doomed.

You forgot one word.... ENIGMA !!!

No, it's not correct. There is NO battle of Kursk as Germans didn't make it to Kursk. There is only operation Zitadelle and most important battle was at now infamous Prohorovka at which point 2nd. SS Panzer Corps (including LSAH, Totenkopf, Das Reich GroSSDeutschland and some other divisions) advanced on town of Obeyan. They could NOT go directly north from Belgorod to Obeyan as bent of Psei river was protected by few Soviet Guard Armies (best of best) so they the headed eastwards and were hoping to link with Army detachment Kempf which was advancing on foot. Only Totenkopf managed to cross Psei river when battle of Prohorovka took place. Unfortunately for the Germans Zukov throw in 5th Guard tank Army and 5th Guard Army while German Army detachment Kempf failed to arrive in time and it was a draw. Actually, not even a draw because Germans crippled their best divisions while Russkies had dozen more in reserve.

To make things more upsetting for the Germans, during the final hours of Zitadelle Soviets were already probing their defenses at Orel. Hitler should have listened to Manstein's advice and waited for the Soviet offensive in central Ukraine and defeat them similarly the way 6th Army defeated Timoschenko in May 1942. To sum it up for you Heidi, Gemans never stood a chance by mid 1943. Especially with the ENIGMA code broken, and Russians prepared on the defensive.

Soviets LOST air battle at battle of Prohorovka. German fighters defetaed them and it was Geman JU87 "Stuka" that mounted 30mm cannon for effective destruction of Russian armour which counted the most. And most famous pilot at the time was Hans Ulrich Rudel.

 

stalingrad...

 

Has any one taken in account that if there was NO western front and Briton had FALLEN that all the German western front troops would have been redireted towards Russia! making germany army much stronger and powerful and all the german equitment and lufftwaffe would all been used against the Redarmy.
Causing russia to lose the battles and she will fall.

There would be no victory Redarmy important Moscow and Stalingrad battles without Briton surviving.

The battle of Briton was the very first stepping stone to an Allied victory and caused anvantage for all allied battles in the furture!(including redarmy battles).

 

anyone thought of addressing this question to our veterans on this board ?

seems most likely they would say the most difficult one would be the one(s) they were involved in and know all too well first hand. I certainly would

 

Heidi,

Are you implying that had GB been taken out of the war, then Germany would no longer need a garrison in Western Europe for the countries which she had conquered?

 

It would have made things a bit easier for the resistance movements.