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No purges of the Red Army in 1937-1939?

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Eastern Front & Balka' started by little_katyusha, Sep 11, 2010.

  1. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to reopen ,or start a thread about the importance of the tank in WW II,but ,limited to the eastfront,some points
    1) of course,tanks were important (T 34 ,was important after 1941),but ,in 1941,with few T34,the Germans initially destroyed the Russian army,and were stopped by a Russian army with few tanks .
    2)the number of tanks is not that important:the maximum of tanks for the Red Army was in june 1941,and,we knowwhat happened;to state:a Pz division =X tanks ,is wrong,the tanks are only a minority of the Pz division ,as even important are :artillery,(motorized if available) infantry,..but also:logistics :if the supply can't follow the advance,the advance will come to a standstill.
    3) that Germany was building tanks to kill other tanks(after 1941) :I have to disagree,because,IMHO,SG and PJ,Assault Guns and Tank Destroyers are no tanks,but armoured,mechanized artillery .
     
  2. green slime

    green slime Member

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    LJAd,
    Germans were stopped by logistics, weather, and hardening defences around Moscow, then beaten back from around Moscow by divisions hustled in from Mongolia, which were not destroyed, and had tanks.

    You cannot ignore the fact that Magnitogorsk produced 50% of the Steel. Whether you put that steel into artillery, or tanks, is besides the point. Furthermore, given the enormous number of tanks the Soviets produced during WWII, combined with their incredible losses, you cannot say that numbers are not important.
     
  3. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    If I may,
    1)let's be careful with numbers:thez source on Wiki I consultes ,stated the following :IT IS SAID that 50 %.......;
    2) my objections are against the automatism of your arguments
    a) Magnitogorsk produced 50 % of the Russian steel
    b) without Magnitogorsk,the Russian steel production would diminishing by 50 %
    c) thus the Russian Tank production would decrease by 50 %
    d) thus there would be 50% less T 34 produced
    e) as the production was not much higher than the losses,the result would be catastrophic
    f)the T 34 being a war winner,Magnitogorsk decided the war
    point a has already been answered
    point be:would you agree with the following :If the Ford plant at Dearborn produced 20 % of the US army trucks,without Dearborn,the production of trucks would decrease by 50 % ?
    No,you wouldn't,you would reply that the Dearborn plant would-could be replaced by an other one .
    Well,the same can be said of Magnitogorsk .It is not that,because Magnitogorsk produced X % of the Russian steel,other factories could not replace the X %.
    point c:it is not because the Russian steel production fell by 50 %,that the tank production would fall by 50 %:the tank production was not absorping all the steel production
    point d :if the Tank production fell by 50 %,the result would not be automatically that the T 34 production would fall by 50 %:the production of other tank types could be stopped to the benefit of the T 34
    point e :you have given the figures of the production and the losses of the T 34 and pointed ,rightfully,that there only was a small margin between both .But,one can reply,that if there was less production,there also would be less losses,and that the margin would remain the same .
    Ex :a)production of T 34 30000 ,losses 25000 ,surplus :5000
    b) production of T 34 15000,losses:eek:f course not 25000,but,maybe :12000,surplus :3000
     
  4. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    on your first sentence:this has my preference:I should say that Typhoon was stopped mainly by the Soviet resistance,logistics had less importance ,and the weather was a myth ,used after the war to excuse the German failure .But this is of topic .
    About the Russian winter offensive (also one of my preferés):the role of the wronly called Siberian ,or Mongolian divisions is ,mainly,a myth :the Germans were stopped and beaten back by divisions raised in European Russia :most of the "Siberian" divisians were already transferred to the front in the summer and most of them had already disappeared .The far East units that participated on the counter offensive,constituted some 10 % of the Soviet strength .(Source :Axis History Forum :the role of the Siberian divisions in the Russian winteroffensive ) .
    About the tanks of these divisions (which were not hustled from Mongolia) :eek:n 1 december 1941 ,the number of tanks for the Russian operational forces (from Leningrad to Rostov) was :1956
    heavy :212
    medium:322
    light:1393
    special :31
    as the T 34 (if I am not wrong) was counted as a medium tank,there only would be 322 T 34 on the whole front,thus my scepticism abou the importance of the T 34 (especially in the beginning of the war ).
     

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