Northop P61-B "Black Widow"

got in the way, the 425th nfs pilots I interviewed never heard of them except the cO Lewis who told me the support mechanism and the binos just got in the way once sighted through for only 1-2 seconds the target either was lost or the Widow pilot nearly rammed the victim up the rear-end

for the above account 10.(N)/JG 300 was busy on October 4/5 44 trying to chase down the Mossies from the LSNF reaching towards Berlin. K. Mitterdorfer shot down 2 Mosquitos and we have the info buried in for our future book

 

Oh, so it was dangerous to use it! Erich you did it again! Laying out the next bit of comment on your book. Hey i am so curios!!!

Ulrich

 

being stelath my friend ............

enjoy all the official training film now on the notorious you tube collection :

YouTube - Flying The P-61 "Black Widow" Series Airplane 1944 Film

I was given this film back in the 1990's by the 425th nfs squadron representative at the time.

Warnung it is long !

the binos do not thing they were dangerous as much as in the way in the cockpit. think the RAF Mossie Nf units used something very similar to Identify LW aircraft with success. the training film should show the film of the binoculars and how they were set up

 

Erich, thank you for the link to the training film! Always a great and informative work that you make!

Ulrich

 

Ulrich do you have the 2 volumes on the Nachtjagd war diaries by Dr. Theo Boiten and Rod McKenzie ? if not you must ........... though they are being revised into new volumes.

 

Thanks for the advices! I am on the way to build up an WWII Library. For now i have around 50 or so books to different topics.

Ulrich

 

last one for tonight

October 6/7 1944 Defensive patrols under GCI control 422nd nfs

Operation # 49 A 62B

4 P-61's

# 44 Allee 0, 3 chases GCI lost one, Allee chased 2 Ju 188's (?) both lost them both due to evasive action over Metz and Trier areas
# 77 Elbracht 0 on patrol over Metz, nacy and Trier, A-I went out and came back early
# 38 Koehler 0 on patrol, 5 chases, one of them a B-17 ? near Aachen and east of the city

# 58 T. Spelis N.E. of Liege at Angels 11 to 12 had visual of Bf 110G-4 and got to within 400 feet and fired 1 long burst from dead astern getting strikes on fuselage. two more bursts on both engines and the wing roots, 110 starts evasive action. suddnely an expl;osion damaging the plexiglass nose cone of the P-61 causing CAT "A" damage, the Widow pilot swerves not to collide with the 110 as it banks and drops down steeply. Contact with the 110 is then lost and Spelis is given a probable kill.
The Bf 110G-4 may have been flown by Stab II./NJG 1 Hauptmann Erich Frey and two man crew they are listed as MIA. craft coded G9+EC. originally the 110 was on a night ground attack mission.
BC Mosquitos were up in the air searching and claimed some 5-6 German night fighters this evening.
Also 10.(N)/JG 300 with the Bf 109G-6AS put in claims for 3 Mosquitos from the LSNF, though one has been officially confirmed as shot down.

 

There were a lot of action in those days! Maybe a good hit in the fuel tank. I always thinking of the last thoughts of an pilot or the crewman as they made their way down, horrible to know your end is coming now and you can do nothing against it!

Ulrich

 

both sides were having probs Ulrich in October due to low cloud situations the LW was having a hard time finding the heavy 4 engine bombers the P-61's running into low cloud visibilities to ID anything properly let alone find an enemy aircraft.

425th nfs had probs with low down fog and rain then low ground haze on the 7th of October for Rhubarbs strafing 1-2 trucks and then a factory at 250 mph using 320 rounds - # 83 Glasser, some of the squadrons P-61's could not find their targets, 1 had a A-I failure and aborted. 10 Widows were put up.

operation # 50, 7 Widows on the 8th of October on another Rhubarb in the area of Saarbrucken 3 a/c reports brief

# 76 Bierer shot up 1 Factory at Nonnweiler
# ? Colligan strafed 1 Convoy and received some Flak in return
# ? Byars shot up 1 Truck and then onto a column of Mt's but was followed and noted in his report a Me 262 behind him, Byars hard banked to get behind the jet but lost it. ( note : too early again for Jet flights at night and NO Me 262's flew at night in the area of Saarbrucken).
6 Widows on night intercept patrols but 0 contacts.

the LW Nachtjagd lost another 6 night fighters on this night, at least 1 to a Mosquito night fighter.

 

In 1944 the Lw had not much of their good men any longer. Mostly youngsters some really good ones but a lot of unexperienced pilots too. I am sure the the 4-mots loved those weather conditions much! The Me 262 was tested in late summer as an NF but i dont think that the Widows only met those ones. As i read the Me 262 was in action as a NF in late 1944. And as you posted in some threads above it couldn´t have been the NF version in this time.

Ulrich

 

the single engine nf with Neptun radar was a failure and Welter did not pursue even missions with it until November of 44 along with AR 234A tests which he highly praised except for it's brilliant glass works in the nose - he wanted armor up front and a belly mounted twin pack of 2cm cannon. Welter did not start recruiting pilots for his band of brothers until November 44's end into Decmber 44 from the night flying schulen and S/E 109 fighter pilots of JG 300 and NSGr 10.

422nd nfs really did nothing on October 7/8 44 as they had chases byut no joy, 2-3 bogeys were lost by evasive action.
On October 9th 44 the 422nd did not fly -no operations

Operation # 51, A 64 B on October 9/10, 44 with 2 P-61's in the air brought 0 - no joy, # 34 tried to follow a bogey in vain dropping window and evasivbe action the Widow lost the LW A/C.

you might find this interesting Ulrich but one of your fav's the He 219 A was up with 6 crews of I./NJG 1 with Wilhelm Morlock of 3./NJG 1 claiming his 10th victory a Lancaster, though he claimed it as a Halifax ( again see the problems both sides faced in the night skies with Identification ).........more on this as I receive information from Holland.

 

I think when talking about the performance of a P-61, you have to take into account the version. The A was no C. Just like the Me-110C was no G. A P-61C would have accounted itself well against the LW, they were just too late for the party, and went to the Pacific instead.

And with the dorsal turret (if so equipped), you don't have to turn inside the other guy. Just point the four .50's where you need the bullets to go.

 

Yes Gromit,and it wasn´t a wise decision to send the most into the PT.

Erich it sounds interesting to see more of the He 219. I think the "Uhu" and the "Widow" were playing in the same class.

Ulrich

 

it's not that easy. the problem was not the A/C entirely if you follow the reports it was education of the US crews they were new to the game coming into patrols in August of 44. as I said earlier Gromit you did not need an upper turret and the weight with another crew member firing the thing 4 20mms was enough quite successful already with the Ju 88G-1 and later G-6 versions. He 219's had too much firepower and the ground crews removed the cannon to leave many times two 20mm in the wings and two 20mm in the belly, the A/C in my opinion was a long-legged winged bird to big except to engage BC bombers, in a match with smaller Mossie NF's it had no chance in my opinion.

The Widow A and B were sufficient for the job maybe a big tad bulky this is why it proved itself in the nocturnal ground attack role.

hopeful you have picked up useful info from the 422nd/425th nfs mission reports ?

 

Erich, i collected so much infos from you, that is more than i ever expected to get!

Many thanks to you for the infos and your efforts!!!

Take care

Ulrich

 

good glad you are enjoying the information only put on this site by the way. an looking at the hits it appears that many are viewing

Gromit just checked through all operating Widow squadrons during WW 2 the C variant was not in service till post war, all PTO squadrons like the ETO operated the A and B versions as well as day time P-38's earlier in the war before issuance of the P-61.

 

Really? I need to get some P-61 books. I thought some of the C's made it to the PTO.

 

after war in those PTO squadrons that served in China this was also the case for the P-38 all black glossed over with the under the nose external radar sensor - interesting looking aircraft I admit. Pape has some excellent works out there on the P-61

 

since I have been talking about the anti-Mossie Bf 109G-6/AS thought I would post a profile up from artist Claes Sundin the print is in the big 2nd volume of JG 300 by Lorant/Goyat and translated by our forum member Falkeeins. the Bf 109G-6/AS flew in the 10th Nacht staffel of III./JG 300 before the paper transfer over to II./NJG 11 forming the badis for the 3 staffels 4-6th of the night fighter unit in November of 1944.

too note again this staffel experimented with different colour configurations some of the A/C were painted all blue with most of the national markings painted completely over and polished with a spray on, even the bolts were puttied over and thinning the engine oil mixture for smoother and more powerful running at high altitude

 

None of the P-38M's saw combat service, and I think only 10 were ever made.