only if hitler let his generals fight the war

Germany was in position and capable of going all out attack on Moscow in late August,and his generals told Hitler he must focus on Moscow, but he wanted to focus on the south front and Ukraine which as a result the troops suffered many casualties, which by the way are highly trained and experienced and imposible to replace. they also lost many armors, lost alot of valuable time and most of all, the troops are extremely tired and no longer capable of taking the capital after Hitler changed his mind,even it is only 25 miles away. So it is either Ukraine or Moscow, Hitler made a choice his generals did not like. And his troops and countryman paid for it.

[ 31. March 2006, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Ironcross ]

 

If anything I´d think it was due to the fact the attack was made on a broad front which was Stalin´s decision, I think. Zhukov wanted to attack in narrow sectors of teh front where the striking power would be more effective, or that´s what the man says afterwards.otherwise I think the Red Army was better armed and had more men.

 

thanks for answer Kai Petri

I was considering only the area where Group Army Center was operating : germans there had more soldiers, guns and tanks than russians (at least I'm pretty sure but I'll dig sources)

anyway, although from december 41 and later on this winter the red army attacked also group army north and south (including spectacular landing in Crimea) the very bulk of soviet forces faced group army center to defend and relieve Moscow.

I will try to find the numbers

 

Their's a good book on this area, here's the details. -

Deadlock before Moscow
Army Group Center 1942/1943
By Franz Kurowski
ISBN 088740412X

 

thx for input

I'll be back with numbers

 

I would have to include the lack of intelligence on the part of the Germans. They vastly underestimated the strength of the Russian army and the production output of the Russians. I think this is just one of the items that led to the defeat of the Germans on the Eastern front.

 

You are right, Packhike. Also the Soviets did all they could to deceive and mislead the Germans. See here.

Welcome to the forum!

 

Could Moscow of ever been taken by the Germans.?

 

thats a hard question i will have to think about in front of the fire tonight....

 

I finaly found back this topic

so : as I promised numbers during soviet counterstrike in winter 41-42 in Army Group Center's area

Germans :

soldiers 1.700.000
arty 13.500
tanks 1.170

Russians :

1.100.000
7.652
774

numbers from D Glanz book When titan clashed

 

of course the Germans can take Moscow, before the winter that is. after the winther, even if they took it they can not hold it.

 

The first part taking Moscow is open to speculation. As for the second part I do agree with holding Moscow would not be easy and in the end all for nothing as they would be forced out.

 

There are too many variables. Even assuming the Germans could take Moscow, how can one safely say whether they could or could not maintain a hold? This is pure speculation!

I have serious doubts about the worth or usefulness of these What-Ifs, they look all to me like 'how can I twist History to make the Jerries win in a paralell universe?'

 

I find these "what ifs" most interesting.
And actually it's the best way to learn WW2 history - generating interest.

 

And you can always create your own What-if´s, Za! I´m sure you have many ideas that do not try to give the Germans the victory!

 

Ironcross

You say 'of course the Germans can take Moscow' if it is so simple then why didn't they?

I wrote this before and I'll do it again.
In urban warfare the gap between the German and USSR soldiers education was closed. The kesselslacht and vernichtungsgedanke didn't apply there. In the close quarters of a city the Russians matched the Germans.

The germans did not seek out to kill their opponents, but to kill their will to fight. This was done by piercing the line of defence and encircling a portion of men. The armd spearheads would drive on ad do all sorts of mayhem in the rear. The slower moving infantry would then deal with the isolated men in due course. As the Germans closed in on the capital the first signs of defending in depth became apparent. The Kesselslacht was no longer enough to secure large victories. The german war machine stopped outside Moscow, with wore down (in some cases inferior) machinery, a long supply line and faced with an enemy who was making out the puzzle to counter their doctrine.

Yes the germans could have taken Moscow. But then they must have started the campaign as soon as general mud was over. Another thing was to forget about the evil race theories and accept the Ukranian volunteers. In this manner the Germans could have been at the gates of moscow with a larger force (bulk of Ukranians holding the south), at an earlier date and with less trouble (if any) by stay behind units.

These conditions are impossible given the nature of the state of Nazi Germany.

 

Of course I do!
* no army purge;
* decent Winter War performance;
* no Molotov-Ribbentropp pact;
* decent Polish invasion performance, giving the Gröfaz occasion to think twice about starting Barbarossa
* giving heed to pre-Barbarossa warnings, all these just to start!

However I regard this as a futile exercise, actual history has an incredible scope, there is an overwhelming amount of books to read, lots of things to know. In the above items there is very much to study before embarking on speculation beyond history. "What would the effect be on the battle for Moscow if the Khalkin Gol battle had been such a major drubbing that the Japanese evacuated Manchuria and reembarked from China"? Totally pointless! Absurd! It did not happen that way and never would! What do I know about Khalkin Gol? Precious little! So why am I speculating on something I don't even know the basics about?

Even so, if these what-ifs were based on good knowledge of the actual facts, and then tinkering with some condition or other to arrive at a different outcome, I would be able to accept them.

But what I see is most of these what-ifs are futile and shallow, based on little previous knowledge of the actual facts (put in mildy to avoid using an adjective too direct), being used to create alternative realities or Nirvanas where The Germans can win!

Therefore what is the point of the exercise besides massaging egos of wannabe-Huns?

 

i said it before and i will say it again.
Germany was in position and capable of going all out attack on Moscow in late August,and his generals told Hitler he must focus on Moscow, but he wanted to focus on the south front and Ukraine which as a result the troops suffered many casualties, which by the way are highly trained and experienced and imposible to replace. they also lost many armors, lost alot of valuable time and most of all, the troops are extremely tired and no longer capable of taking the capital after Hitler changed his mind,even it is only 25 miles away. So it is either Ukraine or Moscow, Hitler made a choice his generals did not like. And his troops and countryman paid for it.
if the Germans took Moscow and force a russian retreat, they can use their rockets and bombers to destroy the factories around the ural mountian.