Operation Market Garden 1944 - a different outcome?

What IS he on???

The fact that so many areas can be examined and criticised is one of the things that makes 'Arnhem' such a fascinating subject for research.

But - to go waaaay back to Leo's original question, I really don't think that the war could have been won in NW Europe in September '44, whatever plan was adopted or whoever was chosen to lead it.

Again, the context is so important - in this case, it was the 'Germany's finished' context. For a moment there , after the German army's headlong retreat through Flanders , SHAEF genuinely felt that Germany was finished. As we know with our wonderful 20/20 hindsight, this was far from the case.

Sure, things could have been done differently/better ( taking - er, was it Rotterdam or Antwerp ?, for instance ) and the shape of the war would have changed.

But Germany still had a few shots left in the locker ......

[ 23. April 2003, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

 

I also think that Alexander The Great could have done it. If you can defeat a whole Persian army, you can defeat a few doze tanks and troops of the Waffen-SS.

 

Having started this thread on Arnhem I'd like to add some footnotes to this discussion:

As for MARKET GARDEN it sometimes seems that almost everything that could go wrong, did go wrong.
BUT, as I remarked before, despite everything, it was in the end a pretty fine line separating success from failure.

Considering that the plan for MARKET GARDEN was cobbled together in just SEVEN DAYS I suppose in one sense it was remarkable that so much did go right, allowing for the lack of flexibility in such a plan.

After all, eight out of nine crossings were achieved. The tragedy of MARKET GARDEN is that the ninth crossing, the bridge at Arnhem, had to be the failure that ruptured the entire operation.

MARKET GARDEN was a daring plan that deserved to succeed. As we know, the faults of the plan were plentiful, but strategically it wasn't over-ambitious and all the objectives were achievable.
You could argue all day and night whether MARKET GARDEN had the right generals or the wrong generals. Personally, I think the Allies would have settled for a lucky general.

In the original thread I asked if the Allies could have ended the war in 1944.
Well I've seen it wargamed to a successful conclusion ... if only it had been a war game!
To use a phrase beloved by the Pentagon I guess the 'balance of probability' is that MARKET GARDEN would not have ended hostilities by the end of 1944.

 

Well. I mostly agree with the points of Martin, Urgh and Leo. It was a matter of Murphy's law. Whatever could have been wrong, went wrong. It was not a matter of the general, you're right (except if he'd have been Alexander)

 

Martin, just come across a Market Garden operation box folder type magazine in the BATTLEFRONT series...

Doesnt go into the battle in any great detail, but full of photocopies of orders, Jedburgh ops battalion after battle report photocoopies....Bit like the old Jackdaw series on history folders if you ever saw them in 70's 80's..

SS account of the battle..photocopy

1 Para war diary typed up report photocopy

Map with plan of advance...bit like o/s

Grenadier Guards war diary photocopy

US 82nd Nijmegen map..pointing out times of individual unit attacks together with Guards attack on bridge.

Dutch reisistancce instructions photocopy of typed up British instructions to.

Glossy photo of famous recce flight photo of bridge wreckage.

Typed up photocopy of German intel summary..ex Ultra decrypt of Geman report.

3 para war diary photocopy of type up.

Letter form Colonel Cassidy us 101 to Irish Guards commmending leadership of Sgt Mcrory in support of US forces. Photocopy.

Jedburgh radio logs and info.

Ultra decrypt German Army Gruppe West message photocopy.

Not normal magazine stuff. So quite interesting.

All info from Public Record Office of National Archives..Came across it in flea market sale...

Released in 1999 So must be still available I suppose.

 

Thanks urqh - I've already got one ! I keep it next to my old 'Battle of Britain' Jackdaw folder....

Actually, the Market Garden folder has been available cheaply in the remaindered shops of late....

 

Well it better not be cheaper than the fiver I paid for it...Ive been robbed then...