Osama Bin Laden : Got Him!

Here is a link to at least some of the video that was released today, captured by the SEALS when they took down his hide-out.

Goto:

msnbc.com Video Player

And just for fun let the whole set of feeds run. They are listed on the left.

 

For another rather interesting 20/20 report from last night…

Goto:

20/20 5/6: Osama Bin Laden's Death Full Episode - 20/20 - ABC

 

Putting bin Landen’s attacks and policy in perspective are analyzed very effectively on this PBS program.

Goto:

Fri., May 6, 2011 | Need To Know | PBS Video

 

It's not that simple. The Pakistani government has to walk a fine line when dealing with the U.S. They can't be seen by their Muslim populace as a puppet of western governments. Radical Islamic groups have used propoganda to successfully paint western governments and the U.S. in particular as anti-islamic crusaders. The Pakistani government can only publicly support us or aid us to a point. Everytime we have an errant drone strike that kills innocent civilians it only becomes harder. We view it as collateral damage in our war against terrorism. How would we feel if Mexico, in it's battle against the drug cartels launched a drone strike in Texas against a house containing suspected cartel members but hit another nearby house killing a single mom and a couple of kids? Same/same. We'd be pissed.
As for selling U.S. technology to China, our supposed best ally in the region, Israel, has been selling U.S. technology to China for some time, to include Patriot anti-missle system technology, technology used in the development of China's new stealth fighter and tank/AFV targeting, aquisition and sensor systems.

 

With respect, perhaps it is just that simple.

It was Pakistan who helped install the Taliban in Afganistan, (apperntly it is not just the US that meddles in other peoples affairs) which in turn gave refuge and aid to Bin Laden and Al Queada, who in turn perpatrated the greatest act of terrorism ever seen by humanity. The Pakistanis chose the game of inserting Islamic Fundamentalist in a neigboring country, because thet believed they could control them.

We went into Afganistan in 2001 for Bin Laden and his gang. We were pissed, and not because of some drone strike. Had we captured or killed Bin Laden 5 years ago would we still be in Afganistan? Our drones and spec ops troops followed Al Quada first to the border region, then past it in pursuit. Pakistan could have denied them safe haven or quietly told us where Bid Laden was years ago. Freeing themselves from errant drone strikes and walking uncomfortable lines. The Pakistanis liked the position they were in because our need of their help meant they could feed from the US tresuary indefinately.

You are right Isreal has not allways been the best of allies to us, and I have still not forgiven them over the USS Liberty attack. The 6th Fleet should have "accidently" sank half the Isreali Navy over that one. Isreal has not always been the perfect ally to the US, but then The Isreali's would not have let OBL live comfortably less than than a mile from one of their military acadamy's either as the Pakistani's did.

 

"belasar", I'm sure you meant the Pakistanis in your post, not the Israelis. I'll let you correct it, k? Good change of post, much more clear now.

 

Situation in Pakistan is a bit more complex. The Pakistanese always have and perhaps always will (at least in the near future) continue to deal with the Taliban and other tribal groups in the region. These very same groups are a counter weight to India and can be called upon for help....

Pakistan uses the U.S. and the U.S. uses Pakistan, both gain from the current relationship and neither cares more about the other then themselves.

 

It's a fair comment to say allies use each other, the Anglo-American alliance of WWII was not without its rough spots, and it was probably the most successfull alliance of modern times. It is my feeling that situations are as complex as you wish to make them. If the presence of American military forces place an intolerable pressure on Pakistan, than it is in there best interest to see the day when our forces have left the area.

It beggars my imagination that the Pakistani government could not understand the importance to the US of taking Bin Laden out of play. I doubt that FDR would have felt kindly to Churchill if he found out that Tojo was living in country estate in Wales.
A large sum of treasure and no small number of lives have been lost over the last 10 years hunting OBL. Some of that cost must be laid at the doorstep of Pakistan. Acting like Lucy to our Charlie Brown is not a wise course, especially if we could throw all our support and money to their arch enemy, India. Further I cannot imagine what points the Pakistani's gained from allowing santuary to OBL with a bunch of tribesmen who see the height of manlyness in shooting their AK-47's into the air.

 

Bin Laden was a threat to Israel, not so much for Pakistan, that comparison doesn't work.

 

I thought you meant " Osama's dead baby!" . Was waiting for sad story about an infant....Kind of like " 50 foot woman found mummified"... A lot of famous dead people lately though.

 

Pakistan: Blasts kill 80 to avenge bin Laden death | detnews.com | The Detroit News

 

WC had so many great lines. This one, I believe, after the best news England received in years. The victory at El Alamein over the vaunted Afrika Corps.

 

Thanks to the men and women of the Armed Forces for their unselfish devotion to duty and to their undying loyalty to their unit comrades (the troop in the next foxhole and their foxhole).
Great job for all of their (Coalition Forces) supreme effort to take this fight to the extremist enemy. Psychologically this hurts their recruiting. If No. 1 can't hide then a new recruit will think twice about the sanctity of his cave, culvert, outhouse or sewer pipe (ratenkrieg) that he hides in.
We have known all along that elements (50% or more) of the ISI are in cahoots with these extremist zealot infidels ( I believe the Hospitalers and Knights Templar coined this term long before Saladin). The Pakistan Govt. will now have to crack down on destabilizers within their own country as their perch becomes more precarious. The Pashtun and other tribes will want some retribution. ISI already gave up the CIA Station Chiefs name to their press. To his credit, Chief refused to come out of country. I don't know he may have changed his mind at this point. At any rate it will be interesting to see what goes down over the next year or ten over there. IMHO of course.

 

Churchill's quote was after the fall of Tunis, not Alamein.

Churchill was a walking quotation waiting to happen.

 

Here's round one to back up my earlier contention in post 194. Just the beginning.
Government of Pakistan will take substantial heat.
Their nuclear allies and enemies have high stakes in keeping the Pak. arsenal out of the wrong hands, so this all plays out most interestingly.

 

with friends like that...


The thing I don't get - why did they leave his wives behind, and then have to beg to get access?

Toss 'em into the Blackhawk - if anyone asks - deny all knowledge.

 

My guess would be that with one helicopter down they lacked the lift capacity for the extra weight. Atlitude and temperature effect air density and an aircraft's ability to lift. That's why you see so many Chinook's and CH-53's used in Afghanistan. IIRC, a Blackhawk's capacity is normally a crew of 4 and 11 Combat equipped troops or 2640lbs. That would be reduced with high altitude or ambient temperature. (I just decided to look it up to make sure, don't want to give out any bad intell, here:Black Hawk Fact File for the United States Army )
On the type of mission they were on they wouldn't have been at max payload going in because you have to build in some excess capacity just in case you have damage, mechanical failure or an accident to a helicopter. That way you can redistribute the load and still have adequate capacity for extraction. My guess would be that they took what they could in order of precidence: 1) crew and operators from the downed aircraft, 2) Bin Laden's body, 3) collected intell, 4) then if there was any payload capacity left they would have taken the wives.

 

Besides, it could be a pr nightmare, if one or more is hurt in our custody, even self-inflicted, we take the heat. Then what do you do with them?

 

Belasar wrote:

You are correct everybody does meddle in everybody else's business, and I am sure there are those within the Pakistani government that secretly support the Taliban and Al Queda. I would however like to point out that the Taliban and Al Queda are two totally seperate groups, with different agendas. The Taliban is a local threat, Al Queda is a global threat and seeks to export terrorism. They do not cooperate in a wide range of areas, it's more a, the enemy of my enemy is my ally type of relationship. I would also like to point out that Bin Laden and Al Queda also posed/pose a threat to the Pakistani Government as it currently exists and as it was under the Musharraf regime. I would also take issue with your interpretation of how the Taliban came to power in Afghanistan.
Both Pakistan and the U.S. supported the Mujahideen insurgency against the Soviets. Pakistan also funnelled money and supplies into Afghanistan, at the behest of our CIA, to support the Mujahideen. After the withdrawl of the Soviet Union from Afghanistan and the fall of it's puppet government, Afghanistan was controlled by Warlords and Drug Lords, no centralized government. Civil War broke out over control of the country by the different factions. In response to depredations against the local populace, some of the people formerly in the Mujahideen, particularly Mullah Omar fought back. Initially, it was a small movement of less than 50 madrassah students, formed in Kandahar, under the leadership Omar. In the beginning, their purpose was to fight back against the local governor whose followers had kidnapped and gang raped, several young girls. Then they went after a local militia that was holding and sodomizing a young boy. Originally, they were a good thing and quickly gained support of the locals they protected. Hearing of their exploits, new recruits swelled their ranks and they expanded into other areas of the country. The country was in chaos and Pakistan provided support to the taliban, they even went as far as providing trained fighters. Initially, the taliban was not an extremist movement. Pakistan's support was not predicated on, as you said, they wanted an "Islamic Fundamentalist" group in power, it was that they were the best chance for a stable government. The Taliban only became an oppressive, strict sharia law government after they came to power and formed a government. Saudi Arabia and the UAE also provided financial support for the early taliban movement. So, it was in Pakistan's best interests to have some sort of friendly, stable government in Afghanistan instead of the lawless, predatory, hodgepodge of warlords, militia's and druglords. What they got was not what they thought they would be getting. Pakistan shares a 1,642.3 mile border with Afghanistan. There are a number of semi-autonomous Federally Adminstered Tribal Areas laying along the Afghan-Pakistani border. Most of these tribes are ethnically related to the Afghani's on the other side of the border. With only minimal influence over these regions and because of the ties the populace in these regions share with the Afghani's across the border I think that Pakistan has a legitimate interest in what occurs in Afghanistan.
In the end the Taliban conquered most of the country, except for some warlords in the northernmost part, who formed the Northern Alliance. An Islamic state was established, Mullah Omar became Emir, but radical elements that had joined the movement steered the new government onto a path that led it to become one of the most oppressive ever.
Remember, both the U.S. and Pakistan had provided support for the Mujahideen in their fight against the Soviets and their puppet government. During the war with the soviets, arab jihadi's went to aid the Mujahideen, that's how Bin Laden originally became involved. These arab jihadists formed a group called the Maktab al-Khidamat, and often referred to as the Afghan-Arabs, their contribution was not very large, maybe 100 fighters and about 2 million dollars. After the war, this organization that went on to become Al-Queda, tried to determine what direction they should pursue now. A power struggle began between the two most prominent leaders, Sheikh Abdullah Azzam and Muhammad al-Zawahiri, Bin Laden was close to both leaders. Azzam wanted to establish an Islamic State in Afghanistan, Al-Zawahiri wanted a global jihad and to overthrow moderate Islamic states. His control of the group would not be in Pakistan's best interests because it has a largely pro-western, moderate islamic government. Azzam was assasinated and Bin Laden assumed control of the organization, now Al-Queda, with Al-Zawahiri as his chief lieutenant. So you now have Pakistan, a moderate Islamic government and Al-Queda with Al-Zawahiri wanting to overthrow moderate islamic governments. After September 11th Bin laden fled to the tribal areas of Pakistan, and when it became apparent that Pakistan would not anger Washington by harboring him, he fled to Afghanistan and Mullah Omar. It is a major Islamic cultural custom to provide sanctuary to one's guests. After the 9/11 attacks the U.S. demanded that Afghanistan surrender Bin Laden. Mullah Omar went to Bin Laden and demanded to know if he was involved in them, Bin Laden assured him that he had not. So sanctuary was granted, we invaded and removed the Taliban from power. Omar and Bin Laden fled to the tribal regions of Pakistan and sought sanctuary. The Pakistani government has only marginal influence in this area and the locals identify, ideologically, with Omar and Bin Laden. If you don't think this is important, think back to the search for Eric Rudolph in the U.S. Rudolph was the suspected Olympic Park bomber. The FBI deployed massive assets to the area they thought he was hiding, in or around Murphy N.C. He spent 5 years on the FBI's 10 most wanted list before he was captured, and we couldn't find him our 1st world country and everyone expects a third world country to do better? His earlier bombings were against two abortion clinics and a Lesbian Bar, he espoused fundamentalist Christian rhetoric and it is likely that some of the local populace that were sympathetic to his views provided him with aid.