Overlord in 1943?

:lol: Civilize the Soviets? Was civilize even in the Soviet dictionary? (I joke, or course)

Interesting, I've never heard of this before. Although, I do believe Roosevelt was so lenient with the Soviets because Stalin threatened on several occasions to stop fighting and make peace with the Germans.

 

just my thoughts.
One major difference would of been the lack of panther tanks and tiger tanks, compared to 44 strentgh.
The l48 75mm was the main gun at the time, this would have helped allied tank forces no end.
And the experience of the war would have accelerated development programs a great deal.
As far as force strength goes, i beleive the majority of the german forces were green/constrict.
A number of more experienced units were moved into france in 44 for rest and relaxation, i bleieve.
I think it would have more been a matter of getting enough men and equipment there rather than the german strength.

 

Actually, I doubt the main gun of June 1944 was anything other than the 75mm L/48, since Panthers and Tigers were few and far between in the West until the autumn of 1944. Moreover, the Bocage makes for such restricted terrain that the huge range and power at range of the later German AT guns would not have been properly useable. In this environment a well-placed Pak 40 does as much damage as a well placed Pak 43.

 

Apparently many Pz.IVs were mistaken for Tiger Is in Normany, because the effect of the longer 75mm gun at the normal combat ranges in Normandy was as great as the 88mm on the Tiger (ie: it killed tanks ) - in fairness I should point out that at the combat ranges in Normany, most modern tank guns would defeat most modern tanks (modern = 1944, obviously)
Plus the tanks were camoflaged & hidden...

 

roel, not true.
According to ofsprey any way nearly 50% of tanks in production were panther or tigers in 1944.

In 1945 less than 500 tanks were made by germany in total.
The panther only entered production in mid 43.
So from mid 43 to dec 44 about 6,000 panthers were made.
It would of made alot fo difference.

The british did not fight entirely in the bocage, and the majority of the tank fighting was out of the bocage.

so it would of made a difference.

In june 43 there probably still would of been a number of 50mm pz 3's.
I doubt there were that many in normady 44.

also a number of the 75mm pak's were in production in 44, so again the 6 months to a year would of made some difference.

even at short ranges the m3 75mm was useless against the tiger and panther frontaly.

And the 6 pdr was not a great deal better.

positions like hill 112 probably could not have been defended in the way they were in 1943 etc.

A greater number of pz 3's and 4's was not a problem for the allies.
Even a small increase in panthers and tigers was. Especaily for the american tank forces.

 

You can't assume that a few more tanks of a somewhat heavier type than the Allied equivalents would make a large strategical, or even tactical difference. After all, most German tanks were in fact knocked out during the war, even in such battles as the Ardennes where the Panther was indeed the German MBT. There were lots of ways to get this done other than using your own tanks, and especially so in the Bocage which did indeed cover all of Normandy north of Caen. There's artillery, aircraft (admittedly only a small factor when talking tanks), infantry AT weapons, mortars, mines etcetera.

Another thing you cannot reasonably assume is that a given amount of tanks produced equals that same amount of tanks on the front line. I have no data as to the amount of Panthers and other tank types in the German divisions in Normandy either in 1943 or in 1944 but I haven't heard any source claiming that the Panther was the German MBT anytime before Speer's Miracle of September 1944. Reports from German armoured divisions just before D-Day mention a distressing number of French tanks in service next to mostly Panzer IVs of various types.