P-51 Mustang, best Allied fighter or not ?

There were stories of Spit wings in huge piles at maintenance units as fractured wings were replaced after sharp pullouts at low levels - something that the more solid Hawker products were not affected by.


:bang: actually another good read on my favorite subject

http://members.madasafish.com/~d_hodgki ... -Vspit.htm

Hurricane vs Spit.. :smok:

 

Let me "quote" Galland for you...

If we would have had the 262 at our disposal - even with all the delays - if we could have had in '44, ah, let's say three hundred operational, that day we could have stopped the American daytime bombing offensive, that's for sure.

Now read this:

http://www.fun-online.sk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3820

Problem with opinions is that they are just opinions :roll:

BTW Head of Luftwaffe would be Herman Göring (IOW the Boss of General der Jagdflieger Galland) and surely altough an WWI ace we wouldn't care for his opinion on this subject

I'm quite knowledgable about Warbirds but i know that i do know never enough

There are enough of those...but as you brought the 109 up maybe you can start one?

 

Wing shape with those clipped wing is the same as the others (only the wing tip is clipped...duh!)!
Better yet it's even possible to un-clip those wings (as recently done with a Dutch Spitfire)!
Reason why wings were clipped was to give them better handling/maneuvrability/roll-rate at lower alltitudes....

 

High speed induced stress...something a hurricane would never encounter

 

DUH "elliptical", refers to the wing 'tip' ...

trust me, I talk english aircraft like a "native" speaker..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptical_wing






how about FW190 Dora v ME109K4

which would you fly? :bang:

Hartmann would not give up his 109, but the 190 was somewhat more 'automated' , easier to fly..

 

Elliptical here refers to the wing shape, not just the tip. You might speak English like a native, but you can apparently not do so without seeming rude and childish.

 

what about the hellcat? it had one of the best kills to loses ratio of the war. it was something like 19 to 1.

 

>Wing shape with those clipped wing is the same as the others (only the wing tip is clipped...duh!)!


>Elliptical here refers to the wing shape, not just the tip

I heartily disagree...


:bang:


check the NACA rating on the P47

>Almost all of the United States Republic P-47 Thunderbolts used elliptical wings, except the last models, which used squared-off wingtips

Wiki link above

 

http://selair.selkirk.bc.ca/aerodynamic ... Page8.html

compare these illistrations..

 

more Spits @ Duxford flight test center

These guys aren't afraid of flinging these aircraft around the sky! Regardless of the model, spitfires were always formidable hunters - even the Mk I had eight machine guns, and starting from the Mk II they started carrying cannons, which you can clearly see in this photo of the Mk VIII. This photo also very nicely shows the elliptical wing, a feature shared with the American P-47 Thunderbolt.

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/ ... s/Sampler/

Here is the NASA explanation

http://quest.nasa.gov/aero/events/colla ... /help.html


There is no discussion of wing arc,

 

Unless I am mistaken...

An Elliptical wing is basically one where the rear edge is an outward curve.

 

Walter Boyne is a local acquiantence of mine, he will answer warbirds questions..

http://www.air-boyne.com/

He is the former chief curator and then Director of the Smithsonians National Air and Space museum, member of the National Aviation Hall of Fame and author of hundreds of books and articles on aircraft. I should disclose that he can also be considered a big " fan" of the Spitfire.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/


You guys draft your question and I will send it, he usually replies in a few hours.

 

Indeed Walt is a really nice and informative guy!

Here is the question i asked:

I'm of oppinion that the wing of a Spitfire is always elliptical even when the wing tips are clipped.
This because the original wing structure (even without the tip) is based upon the elliptical shape.
The basis wing is an elliptical one so the wingshape still is elliptic.
Also a fact is that clipped spit wing could be made unclipped again without much trouble.

Here is the answer he gave me about the elliptical wing of the spitfire....

 

very well then..

I get your/his point




Yeah he is a good guy and his books are well written. People here in Fairfax have a tendacy to lightly pencil in comments and stuff into library history books. His books are seldom 'corrected' in the margins.

If you write him he will give an honest answer about anything.

 

I must thank you for giving me his website...so Thank you !

 

And to get back on topic, my opinion is that the Spit is the better aircraft

Not as fast, but much more manuverable, with a better rate of climb, better acceleration and a superior armamament

The range issue is it's only drawback but this could have been solved (and was solved by Supermarine altho never put into production). it was actually the same approach as the Mustang. Fitting drop tanks and a fuel tank behind the pilot (which had the same drawback as the mustang, in that stability was affected because of the CG change. the solution was to use the fuselage tank on the climb out and as it drained stability would return to normal, followed by your droptanks, then back onto internal fuel)

In Quill's autobiography he worked out that with these mods the spit could make it to Berlin and back (sound familiar )

and to set the cat amongst the pigeons i actually rate the corsair, long nose 190 and the tempest as superior airplanes to the P-51

 

I like them both, they often worked in teams.

There is also something to be said for entering an air battle higher and faster.

The Mustang has been called 2nd best in all categories except range.

and in high speed battle, it was tops.. Its maneuverability actually improved at high speed..

The Tempest was not capable at high altitude, where as the
'Stang was also very good down on the deck.

Better? where @30000-40000 feet and 400+ mph? The Mustang I believe was tops.. OK the P38 could do 45,000 feet

FW needed the Ta152 because the FW190 Dora just could not compete at altitude.

OK, late model Spits could..in 1945.

I like them all..and I am definitely a Spitfire fan.

 

How about from January 44 with the XIV, less than two months after the P-51 entered operational service with the 8th Air Force

 

Only with great discomfort to the pilot, the cockpit heating on the P-38 was very poor, the pilots gave it the nickname of 'The Ice Box'
The cold also caused problems with the engine supercharges, forcing the 8th Air Force to normally operate at a lower level than enemy fighters could fly

 

You must confuse A models with the D model.