Panzer IV vs M4

Now note that in these records that Korner and Diers had the only 2 operational KT's at this point and they succesfully engaged IS-2s. Here are some other common facts for the performance of the KT in combat. "A standard battalion (Abteilung) comprised 45 tanks:[SUP][28][/SUP] " (sorry this was the standard number of KT in a battallion, now the actual number of KT's in operation varies). "The 503rd remained in the Hungarian theater of operations for 166 days, during which it accounted for at least 121 Soviet tanks, 244 anti-tank guns and artillery pieces, five aircraft and a train. This was at the loss of 25 Tiger IIs; ten were knocked out by Soviet troops and burned out, two were sent back to Vienna for a factory overhaul, while thirteen were blown up by their crews for various reasons, usually to prevent them from falling into enemy hands" (The IS-2's success in combat is nowhere near this level). "The Schwere SS Panzer Abteilung 503 (s.SS Pz.Abt. 503) claimed approximately 500 kills in the period from January to April 1945 on the Eastern Front for the loss of 45 Tiger IIs (most of which were abandoned and destroyed by their own crews after mechanical breakdowns or for lack of fuel).[SUP][46][/SUP] " (Once again the IS-2 combat record is nowhere near this level). [SUP][/SUP]

 

None of my quotes are from achtung panzer which was published in 1937 and is not even relevent to the Tiger tank.

 

My sources come from various places as no one source can be assured credible if it is alone. Internet, books, interviews, videos, memoirs. "Germany's Tiger Tanks - Vk45 to Tiger II: Design, Production & Modifications." "Tigers in Combat II." "IS-2 Heavy Tank 1944-1973" There is a few books for you to start and i already told you the name of the memoir. Otherwise I could care less if you just cant accept certain facts and want to call me a liar. I have numerous sources that all say the same things just in different context. Get over yourself.

 

Could you recomend a Tiger book I do not already have. I am sure I must have missed one............

mkenny's books | LibraryThing

 

those common quotes are from wiki. with the reference number above but im sure youll doubt all that too. Typical russian fanatic. The KT isnt even a war changer and you still have to doubt its quality as a combat unit.

 

Not really. I could go all day mentioning books. If you have them then read them yourself. Sounds more like to me that you either A: Dont actually have these books and just claiming so to make yourself sound relevant. Or B: You have these book sbut have not actually studied them or bothered to actually read them as the quotes are directly from those books.

 

If you know the number of Soviet tanks lost in Berlin then you would know how silly that claim was.
I can only repeat the statement by Willbeck:

' s.SS.Pz.-Abt. 503’s claims lack credibility. '

 

Oh I have read them, read them often enough to know you are stuck in a universe where even the silliest of claims is never checked against reality.

If you have any of the books and want to test me ask for a sentence from a random page from any book and we will see who is the bluffer.

 

So then give me the page number/book for your quotes. I will check and(unlike you) post a scan of the actual words.

A word of advice. When cutting and pasting from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_II

you should link the Wiki article, good manners.

 

SS 503 lacks claim of credibility? Who decides that? The russians? If thats your argument then the Russians could also lack credibility according to the germans. you have nothing to base your argument off of in that case. That is an argument of everybody calling each other liars. And if this is the case how come KT's have posted similar numbers in other areas? Like the 503rd that i mentioned at Budapest? One thing that points to credibility is consistancy. and the constant thing with all Tiger II's is that they all destroyed far more than they lost and another constant is that more were lost to breakdowns or lack of fuel and munitions than to actual combat. Unless of course your claiming that any claim made by a Tiger Crew is a lie which is what it seems.

 

Page 324 of Tiger in Combat. There is the only actual page number im going to give you. You can find the rest yourself since you are so intelligent lad.

 

Christopher Wilbeck
He did it after writing his book 'Sledgehammers'. Note the book is mainly a love letter to the Tiger and it uses claims rather than confirmed kills to compile the so called 'kill ratio table' that figures so large in the fan boy universe.
When even Wilbeck notices your claims are absudly high then you are in real trouble.
Not the Russians old bean but another Tiger afficinado.


.

 

There is one area where we can check Tiger II claims, Normandy. There we have a fairly complete record of all tank losses and can compare claims agaianst reality. In the East we have no such check and silly claims of 40 tanks knocked out in one action are rife there. Not so Normandy.
So as you claim 'TII kills' are consistent please give me the Allied tanks claimed by the 34 TII's in action in France June-August 1944.
Lay it all out and prove your case.........................

 

Is that Tiger In Combat I or Tigers In Combat II?
Is it the paperback page number or the Harback?
Your 'one' reference is actualy one of four.

So I checked.
It aint TIC I hardback.......
It aint TIC II hardback......
It aint TIC I paperback.....
Then it is TIC II paperback!

You can get an idea of the fantasy world SS 503 were living in with the claims made in March-May

7/3/45 57 (Soviet) tanks out of 80 are destroyed.

18/4/45 64 Soviet tanks knocked out for the loss of 1 TII.

19/4/45 Long entry but it is claimed that SS 503 destroyed 177 Soviet tanks this day!

30/4/45 30 Soviet tanks knocked out

Thus on 4 days 328 Soviet tanks claimed by a handful of TII's!
One wonders if any other German Unit fighting in Berlin hit anything other than burning Soviet wrecks.

 

Sometimes I wish people would stay on topic and if they wished to diverge into another topic ie king Tiger V IS2 etc etc etc then they would start one.

Having a Sherman versus Pzkpfw IV thread and coming into loads of unrelated info is poor form chaps.

 

Yes well the thread is 8 years old and went off-topic several times through the years.
However your TII/IS-II complaint is 2 years too late.
See
http://www.ww2f.com/armor-armored-fighting-vehicles/12399-panzer-iv-vs-m4-8.html#post439953

Better late than never!

 

Here is an account of Diers taking I x 122mm hit, notice he does not 'motor on' for 14 days before stopping for repairs:



Low on ammunition, Feldwebel Körner and Diers (Tiger 314) provided security. Along the heights between Ihlow and Reichenow, at a great distance of approx. 1800 meters, four hay piles were observed. Through his binoculars, Georg Diers saw a fireball coming from one of the plies of hay. Diers also recognized the silhouette of a 122mm Joseph Stalin tank that fired at their tank. From the turret, Diers watched the tank projectile sail through the air. Shortly before impact on the turret, he ducked down inside the tank. The Soviet round tore the vision blocks apart, ripped the hatches off the tower, and partially blew the coning tower off the turret. Unfortunately, the telescopic sight was damaged that rendered the tank inoperable.

Trger des Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuz SS-Obersturmbannfhrer Paul-Albert Kausch (Nordland)

The site is an uncritical 'believe anything about the super Tiger II' type so it can hardly be called biased in favour of the Soviets.

Also note the range-1800 meters and the IS-2 scores a hit first time. What was that about crap Soviet sights that were so inferior to German sights?

 

Claims for April 19th 1945:

At a range of approximately 400 meters, the Tigers opened fire and quickly destroyed approx. 40-50 Soviet T-34 tanks


By 1600 hours the attacked had failed. Without a single loss, 4 Königstiger managed to destroy 105 of over 400 Soviet tanks....

That is one version and 145 + Russian tanks are claimed.
Schneider in his book 'Tigers In Combat 2' makes the total 177.
A further 58 are claimed on the 18/4/45 and 50 of them claimed by the TII's

Taken by surprise in the open terrain, 50 Soviet tanks were destroyed. ....

Both the above quotes from:
http://www.stengerhistorica.com/History/WarArchive/Ritterkreuztraeger/Kausch.htm

I make that 200-227 claimed by TII's in 2 days


The Russian losses are known for the period 16/4/45 to 20/4/45.
They wrote off 224 tanks in the units engaged on both 18 and 19th of April.
So in 2 days the handful of mighty Tigers claimed 3 more tanks than the Soviets lost to all weapons in 5 days!
What about all the 88's that were on Seelow?
What about the Panthers and Stugs?
The hollow charge weapons?
Did they not hit anything
Did no one else get a look in?

 

M Kenny. I am not saying that an IS-2 is not capable of fighting a KT tank. However, the Tiger tanks were far superior in combat effectiveness compared to the IS-2 and the numbers are so. The claim is that you say Korner and Diers lied about their kill numbers and that it is not possible for 2 KT to claim 12 IS-2's in battle. You are far from right. As far as Normandy goes this was one of the Tiger II's earliest debuts. You could of also pointed out its initial appearance in Ogledow where Tiger II's were handled by T-34's. The Tiger II like all tanks suffered from initial flaws in particular leaky gaskets and an over ridden transaxle. And crews carried extra rounds in the turret that made it more susceptable to explosion. Furthermore you are reading a book that was published when? 2004? more than 50 years after? Please if your going to call someone a liar then you have to have something from someone either russian, German, or somebody in an authoritative position that says hey they were lying.

 

Is it possible that many tiger aces kills are off by some. Yeah very likely, it is war after all. However is it possible for 2 KT's ,who become engaged with a group of IS-2's in an urban setting at night, to defeat 12 IS-2's? The answer would be yes and evidence that says this is possible is from a combination of the factors
1: its an urban setting which means room for mobility is limited and there is a strong chance for debris that further limits room. Furthermore this was most likely at close range which means even though the IS-2's gun will be effective the KT will be far more devastating.
2: The KT has the Gun, Optics, armor, and stable enough firing platform to engage IS-2's effectively.
3: It was night time meaning the IS-2's could have become under attack and not even known what was going on. For all you know they could have thought they came under fire from a dug in gun and were hurling HE shells off in the distance.
4: There is not a whole lot of reason for Diers and Korner to lie. Im pretty sure they were aware they werent going to be at the steps of the reichstag recieving more medals from the furher.
5: If they were lying they most likely would have exaggerated the numbers a bit more to make sure they were the best of the war. Korner is 8th on the German list and Diers isnt even near the top. And thats not counting other nations.
6: Once again you have no knowledge of the battle situation. The 12 IS-2's were most likely not all sitting in the same place. You also dont know how the russian tank crew re acted.

Conclusion: It is more than possible that Korner and Diers could have taken out 12 IS-2's. And you claim that these 12 would have taken up most of the tanks the russians wrote off on this day but once again how do you know? Maybe the tanks got written off later or seeing that the number didnt eclipse the total written off anyways perhaps those were the only ones lost. You have no way of proving this. Unless you have a primary source from an authoritative figure that says they lied. Not a secondary source written by someone 50 years later. And again I never made the claim that IS-2's can not beat a Tiger tank. I said the KT has a distinct advantage over it in terms of armor and firepower. I never said that the Tiger was an invincible tank. In fact I said the tank was so limited that the allies didnt even bother building something to match it when they could simply call in artillery or air support.