Panzer IV vs M4

First of all, noboby is claiming the absolute dominance of the M4. The two tanks are near equal in most catagories, but the Sherman has the slight advantage in most. The reason it took the Allies time to defeat the Germans is because they fought back. I would ask you the question, if the German tanks were so good then why were the Allies able to defeat them? I suggest you actually argue for the specs of the Pz. IV if you think it is superior.

The Sherman was built because they needed to replace the M3. The US, like many other countires, realized the new style of tank warfare and developed the Lee/Grant and Sherman to support their infranty in that new type of warfare. The US didn't put a 105 on the Sherman because you can't just simply go around throwing any caliber gun onto any chasis and turret. We have seen this mistake made with the Challenger and the 17 pounder and the Jagdpanzer IV and the PaK 42 L/70. After time for development they fittted a low-velocity 105-mm on the Sherman chasis with some sucess. However, more succesful AFV's with low velocity guns of this caliber or greater typically had an immoble turret or no turret and were called self-propelled guns. Hint, Hint...the M7 Preiest.

 

By September 1944 Germany was beaten. The fact that the Germans held on until an extra million of her soldiers and citizens were killed and the country left in ruins adds nothing to any claim of military superiority. Quite the contrary. It shows how stupid they were not to seek terms in 1944.
The idiotic and pointless death of many millions is the direct result of this lunatic 'fight to the last' mentality. Though this carnage much lauded by juveniles who think Tigers were 'cool' nothing can hide the fact they Germans were dead in late 1944-it just took a few months longer for them to stop twitching.

 

Oh????? How many German tanks made it to North America? Remember the US had to power project in WW2 across two large oceans. That requires a huge investment in what you call a "logistical tail". Look at all the Liberty Ships,Landing Craft and all the other special equipment the US had to build just to bring it's land forces to bear against the Germans & Japanese.
As far as it taking a year for the Allies to beat the Germans well for one thing N.E. France is pretty good defensive terrain .Now as far as why the Allies needed a 75mm in a fully traversable turret I always thought it was realised that a tank needed a gun with good HE capability to take out anti-tank guns.

 

Either that... or the Allies beat the Germans who had the best equipment in the world in just one year!

 

well well well you all must think i have no idea about ww2 and everything ("logistical tail"). firstly to jagdtiger1 im not saying the panzer IV is superior to the m4 but cut the panzer some slack man, for the last 5 pages its been insult after insult towards the panzer IV and nothing but praise for the m4 which many crews have wrote down as HATING IT, yes ive read stories of british crews hating shermans aswell as amis. now a question for you. where was 3/4 of all german manpower and equipment throughout 1944 and 1945? which front? i let you look up on that and you'll see that when you have the entire world against you pushing into your country from 3 sides.................you aint gonna win.

now fro you kenny, i dont think tigers are cool or say YAY! when i read about a tiger scoring ahit on a poor t-34. i merely think that the engineering of the of the german nation at that time period was on par if not ecelling everyone else in the world. 1944? crushed? pah! look at the production reports for all german AFVs in 1944, they were the highest in the entire war. but yes they were kinda crushed your right and i do think its a shame that most german people followed a delusional maniac such as hitler, think of the prospects if the germans co operrated with the allies.

icksdad, look at the size of germany.... please and now look at america......... done yes i know USA much bigger than little old germany. now look at USA in comparioson to were batlles were fought......... done exactly none near USA nothing, zilch maybe a little jap plane cam whoopdy do, go gabba gabba. USA didnt have 4 engined bombers bombing conastantly did they? NO germany on the other hand was bombed day and night. and now you''ll say but the u boats what about the u boats once again zilch by 1944 the u boat fleet was all but destroyed and even if there was one lone marauding u boat it would have been crushed like a mouse by depth charges and planes so so much for your logistical tail being a problem. twicw the americans landed in france and the second time wasnt even needed. so there wasnt exactly a need for continous landing craft. i said something about the brits wanting a 360 degrees traverse 75mm so i dunno were you get your logic for that.

lastly guys whats with the anger why cant we all be friends? why do we have to fight?

 

Well, have you?

The Germans losses for Septermber 1944 included the Ploesti oil fields, steel foundries and synethic oil plants in the Rhur and 900,000 battle casualties. Thereafter Nazi Germany lived only as a headless chicken.

21st Army Group needed 1,000 metric tons of supply per day. Ever heard of "logistic tail"?

The port of Marseille captured by the unneccessary Operation Dragoon privided 1/3 of total shipping tonnage to the western allies in ETO.

 

well were kinda getting off the point dont cha think?
but this is by no means finished you hear me ! nah just jokin

 

That must set a record for the number of strawmen in one post.

 

do you think just cos im new here i dont have the slightest idea of what happened 60 years ago? jeez man i mabe a recruit doesnt mean i just started learning about the whole friggin conflict. and for gods sake whats your problem? why am i so wrong and you so right, do you like putting down people who havent studied as much as you? headless chicken ay, i just saw a report stating that the german army had 5 million soldiers now granted that most of those were hitler youth, volksturm and other nations devoted to germany. headless chicken ay? i read a story of german paras who stopped 5 SOVIET TANK ASSAULTS, 1 assault using panzerfaust, panzershreck, 2 assault used up their panzerfausts..., 3 assault used magnetic mines, 4 assault last of magnetic mines and satchel charges, 5 and final assault using satchel charges and genades in open hatches. in the end the soviets lost 4 battalions worth of tanks + dead russian infantry this mass of assaults was defended by 84 men and 34 wounded who wanted to die next to there comrades. unfortunatley the book neglected such events on the western front but i can imagine they wouldnt be much different to the russian fiascos. and only 1/2 of that company were experienced men. first day here and i already get put down, boy i wonder about your life mate, would you have the guts to say that to someones face? or is going on the internet and putting down people who cant touch you your way of getting things done. i dont know what i have done to upset you? maybe i know you from somewhere else or something like that but please just give me a break

 

perhaps we should consider that from the moment the sherman came into service,alamein i believe,the allies were generally on the offensive.the m4 crews had not only the panzer 4 to worry about,but tigers,panthers,jagpanzers,jagpanthers etc,and also large numbers of panzerfausts and great amounts of a/t guns. i reckon allied tankers did sterling work in m4,s,from the deserts of north africa,sicily,italy,france,belgium,holland and finally germany,hats off to them all.
p.s the soviet tankers too,cheers.

 

"That must set a record for the number of strawmen in one post. could you please explain what that means? just never heard of the term "strawmen"

 

You believe all such tall tales? Date, location please.

You might want to revisit the numbers you have on tanks for one. If anything there was a slight inbalance in favour of The Western Front in the summer of 1944. More so if you add the Italian numbers.

There is no other word to describe the equipment losses East and West in 1944. In all they lost 10,000 tanks/SP's in 1944

I am not angry and you should not get angry either. It is a forum and they are only words.

 

what is strawmen.

 

straw man n. 1) a person to whom title to property or a business interest is transferred for the sole purpose of concealing the true owner and/or the business machinations of the parties. Thus, the straw man has no real interest or participation but is merely a passive stand-in for a real participant who secretly controls activities. (Sometimes a straw man is an argument which is intended to distract the other side from the real issues or waste the opponent's time and effort, sometimes called a "red herring") (for the belief that drawing a fish across a trail will mislead hunting dogs).

 

kenny the date and location, says "one day in april"(1945) and location just says defence of neuruppin, i think northern germany? and now that i have read it again it says there were 6 assaults but the commander was ordered to retreat as soon as the 6th started AND they were SS paras, special forces (well hardly at that stage in the war) unit name: SS paratroop battalion 600. the book: KOMMANDO german special forces of world war two, james lucas. hope it helps great read, kinda sad when you get to the luftwaffe special forces.

 

cheers man.

 

A Commando unit codenamed Dora II of the SS 500th Penal Battalion? A most dubious story... It's in James Lucas's War on the Eastern Front in Brandenburg.

 

close but yes it says after they swam across to the german side of the oder they were renamed 600th but nothing of penal battalion? my book says they were SS paratroops.

 

The numbering system indicates the nature of the Unit. However 'Penal' in this case refers to minor infractions of discipline rather than outright criminality.

 

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