Parachutists in WW2..Worth it?

Yes, I saw a story on the Military Channel talking about the losses that the Luftwaffe suffered in the Med causing a strain on future supply operations, but it did not mention the reduction of airborne operations as a by-product. Makes sense now. Thanks for the input.

 

I also found these pictures. A really cozy fit on the inside !!!

Axis History Forum • View topic - JU-52s-transportation of FJs

 

Then Laddie...sorry I like the word laddie, its not meant in a condesending way...So I'll use it...Well laddie, then you need to accept parachuting was still in its relative infancy in the war, and it took someone with some guts to consider doing what we look on today as a sport with all the technical metits involved today.

I would also if I was you look at the training an airborne soldier was expected to take part in even today and compare it to any of the other so called eltes....Commandoes notwithstanding....Far far in excess of anything most soldiers would be asked to complete or expect. , that sort of thing sort of enhances your fightng prowess considerably.
As many post ww2 battles have proved.

 

I think my friend urqh hits the nail on the head here.

Getting that red beret is more than nipping off to the depot. The lads train harder and get used to that extra bit.

From a british point of view the differences become more obvious. The Paras and Commandoes became a haven for the lads who wanted freedom and exitement.

With freedom I point to the autocratic command system that was heavily enforced up to 1942~ish. In the paras/commandoes initiative was encouraged, and the soldiers asked to use their wits. Unlike the regular formations who could count on a thousand gun barrage if there was a suspicious matchbox on the roads, the lads had to do it with nothing heavier than a Bren. This put a premium on small unit tactics.

In Normandy the 6th Airborne was part of I Corps. Hardened Desert/Sicilly/Normandy veterans of the 51st Highland Division was amazed at the superb close quarters fighting that the 6th AB did in Normandy.

 

it's about attitude. you can follow the tragic march or maybe fall back from Sicily over the straits of Messina and into Italy, Heydrich's 1st Fallschirm Division. Were they fools to take to the town of Cassino fighting in the ruins being blown apart daily and up on the slopes of the castle and to the base of the Monestary ? was it worthless ........... keeping the Allies at the base for nearly 2 months

those guys knew full well they were cannon fodder but did their duty. Many Allied soldier felt they were up against the Wehrmachts Elite but did the Fallshirm's feel they were something special ?..... some did, some did not, again it's about attitude.

E ~

 

And I certainly wouldn't knock Heydrichs boys. Some of the best soldiers to ever pull on a uniform.

It must be an airborne thing.

No I wasn't airborne, but as elites go they were and still are the elite....again...I'll let the present day commando's into that little band. Marines, commando's I'll bow to them all. Unless in a pub on a Saturday night in my youth, in which case, they are animals that should not be allowed to mix with decent folk like us. Move my pint? Why? Room on the bar for my head....Oh I see....I'm off then....

 

urgh I remember some years ago interviewing a kind gent not sure of his rank but he fought in Sicily got over the straits and then right up the boot and butt of Italy to Cassino and then pulled out right after their retreat, captured severely wounded in Normandie and then went on after the war as a translator for the Americans and into the CIA. some very interesting stories. He felt serving under the Fallshirm doctrine that he was at first a special breed of cat only because of training and then as the war wore on it was the case of one doing his duty but nothing else but to survive, at Cassino being holed up for days in 2-3's and then finally separated from his kamerden he said only because of training could he and his "boyz" remain firm and like isolated fortresse's that the Allies had to break down 1 by 1.

So again are or were they elite, guess this would be a personal perspective

 

Urqh, your return to the Forum has brought with it endless moments of smiles upoun yours trulys face mainly the relpys ref market garden they were classic. And if my Dad were alive today he would quite happily stand next to you at the bar with a pint and tell you the story of the time a RAOC, officer with a commando dagger flash on his sleeve tried to cast blasphamous comments upoun the Parachute Regiment, having been corrected about his wholly woeful and evil comments he started to blurt out bollocks in reply only to choke halfway through when he realised my Mum was stood there listening to this uncouth rag and oily oh why cant i be a marine the paras dont want me turn a rather nice well nearly maroon colour. Keep up the good work your moments of mirth make my day

 

I think all the so called elite regiments of any nation, because of their training and belief in their own prowess call themselves an elite. Their actons then go on to prove if that was so.

I think though its us Joe Public in the end who will confirm if their actions and roles were indeed of elite status when comparing them to others...We don't have the right to I suppose, but some things just shine or rise to the top when we look at a units history or whatever. There is a danger though, I do believe we have to seperate the sometimes Hollywood I only say Hollywood cos there aint a Hollywood in UK as such so I have to blame someone...but Hollywood can take the actions of brave men serving in battle and doing the elite things and push on us the superhuman status that some of our youngsters then think they were indistructable.

The elite though will always show themselves in their recorded actions. Some of them will shun their role as I was only doing my job, duty, whatever, but it is our duty to respect them for what they were and are without of course getting into a nationalistic fervour.

I believe the guy you knew, was indeed part of an elite unit and as such is entirely deserving of the elite status just by being in that unit. He had to earn the right to be part of it in the first place.

Martin Popiwell of same group wrote his memoirs as a serving officer in same vein. He never saw himself as anything other than doing what he had to do. Apart from the pride initially of gaining access to such a unit in the first place.

I Agree totally it is a personal perspective, but sometimes those who were that elite would never admit to such.

How do you tell a fake para in the UK? They drive a taxi, see your kit bag when travelling on leave and then you get 20 minutes of I'm in the SAS, this is just part time mate...When I was in Aldershot we used to.....Seems half of UK taxi driving population are either in the SAS or were paras....Amazing...never knew we had so many...

I'm biased of course, my brother was 2 para, they call us crap hats over here because of the peak caps we wear....I must be only crap hat that did something in a paras red beret and lived to tell the tale....Well he was getting on my nerves on leave at home...Shouldnt have left it there...Mum Tommy's we...d in my beret...I'm going to kill the .......Its good when mum comes in and says....Put Tommy down...dont you hit him....And big tough para has to put Tommy down....He never got over it....paras...elite??? Not in my mums house...

 

I think if we just look at the compliment the british para's recieved in N Africa proves thier capabilities they aren't called the Red Devils for nothing.

 

think both you guys should be proud ..........

have Martin's memories as well in book form, good read.

 

Wtld45 is an elite himself....Not the Welsh bit, thats fairly common....as are sheep....but to support LFC, he joins an elite band of wayward brothers, not exactly band more song if you stand on the KOP....I did though stand at Anfield Road end in my childhood days..but on earning money I did what every former kopeyte and Anfield Roader would do....sod the pies I'm off to the stands....well seats..why call em stands when they are seats? Anyway..Liverpool fc supportors...well known as the recce force in Europe to this day. Who needs paras...send in some Kopite with a smile on his face...They will soon realise al ist kaput, ve hav no anser to dis.....Mein got dey are reel red devils..

I'll get me coat.

 

He He WALES WALES.Liverpool need a kick up the bloody arse from the Kop after the other night and maybe a run round with some crows on P COMPANY could inspire them for i cannot bear the bloody manc next door crowing about fergie's red devils winning the prem

 

Well Wolfy, the paratroopers can do this and no one else can. To be fragmented into numerous small pockets and fight as a formation. Raise merry hell when other units would have surrendered. The point is to hold an objective and make it hell for the enemy for three days until relieved.

As for the Germans, Hitler was traumatized after the gamble in Crete and thereafter did not have adequate resources to drop parachutists en masse anyway. Note that a massive airborn operation was supposed to take placed during the Battle of the Bulge and so the Germans also saw use for real parachutists but was unable to pull them off.

 

? Infantry divisions, Armored divisions, etc. can do this too.

 

Sadly no.

An armoured division needs a three billion gallons of fuel every day just to keep going, and an motorised/mech infantry division much the same way. The tactics used by these formations calls for integrated all arms actions. When scattered they loose cohesion and effectiveness.

The airborne unit is trained to accept landing with heavy losses, joining up with whoever is met on the way to the objective and get on with it.

No food no problem. Bark on trees, maggots in the earth and yellow snow has a nice taste.

No ammo or weapon? Kill one of the enemy and arm yourself. No USO, no problem Willard can do his amazing "farting armpit act" that can keep up morale till we are relieved.

Regular units loose morale when they are robbed of it's tail because the instructors have said that they have a thousand guns supporting them, hot meals everyday, a big hospital just to the rear and Glenn Miller is coming on Thursday.

 

Panzer Kampfgruppe and Task forces/Combat commands?

While they undoubtedly are trained to be "tough", these "isolated pockets" of Airborne are often annihilated by the often second rate enemy force if they are spotted (unless they are lucky), hence the high casualties. They simply don't have firepower to engage in a rigorous firefight with a favorable exchange rate in most situations.

Secondly, many American infantry/armored units found themselves "engulfed" in the battle of the bulge/Mortain counteroffensive. They often fought on as long as their material lasted them as well.

 

A taskforce is not a fragmented group Wolfy. It is a unit built on purpose to execute a special task. The taskforce operates as one unit, wheras the airborne accept that the journey ahead may involve the unit broken into bits and still get the task done.

When the airborne are isolated and destroyed it is usually due to having to hold out for a lot longer than anticipated. Arnhem beeing the obvious example.

But the airborne start with no materiel. IF they have gliders carrying heavy kit AND it manage to land without hiccups it is a bonus.

 

Nicely said, sir.