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POLAND SAVED GREAT BRITAIN DURING WORLD WAR II

Discussion in 'Air War in Western Europe 1939 - 1945' started by Kwaqu777, Jan 25, 2004.

  1. Wojtix

    Wojtix Member

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    I don´t try to claim the whole thing to myself. But only a small group of people in Great Britain knows (today), how many Poles fight and die to defend their country in the WWII.

    [ 27. January 2004, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: Wojtix ]
     
  2. BratwurstDimSum

    BratwurstDimSum Member

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    So you acknowledge then that it was Poles along with the Czechs, the Commonwealth and other overseas volunteers that saved Britain and not just the Poles?

    Martin/Kai, you got any figures for the combined overseas effort vs Polish only?

    [ 27. January 2004, 06:21 AM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]
     
  3. BratwurstDimSum

    BratwurstDimSum Member

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    Just to show I am not an ignorant git, I purchased last year the the excellent book:

    "Poles in Defence of Britain" by Robert Gretzyngier ISBN: 1902304543

    A fantastic book combining Oral history from some of the Polish vets themselves with testimony from their British Comrades. Also included are combat records for EVERY day and the fates of ALL Polish pilots who flew in the Battle of Britain.

    A stunning read and a wake up call to all those who still do not know this small but significant contribution to British History.
     
  4. Wojtix

    Wojtix Member

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    I never said that only the Poles saved Britain.
     
  5. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Can I just say that only a relatively small number of people in Britain know how many British people died in WWII.....
     
  6. BratwurstDimSum

    BratwurstDimSum Member

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    Ahh OOPS!! Sorry, got you confused for Kwaqu777! :( [​IMG] :rolleyes:

    So the question still stands for Kwaqu777:
    [ 27. January 2004, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]
     
  7. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    I just want to make clear that the very name of this thread is a complete lie and some people are claiming this as true.

    I was not the first one to mention other theatres besides the Battle of Britain in this thread. And again, the very title of the thread clearly says that the Poles didn't only save Great Britain during the battle over southern England, but the whole war. And I will draw out my sword every time I see people stating nonsense stuff. [​IMG]

    And this is very remarkable for itself. Polish pilots were less than 5% of the pilots involved in the battle, and shooting down even 8% of the total is already extremely important, but not decisive.

    First, France's Army did not have five million men in 1940. Maybe three. And the campaign lasted six weeks, cost the Germans 100.000 casualties and France didn't cease to exist as a nation. I am in no way saying that France's better than Poland, just pointing out that both her situations are not similar.

    I agree with this. I've said it many times and I'll say it again. France and Great Britain should have marched into Germany on the very September 3rd.

    The original objective of this thread was stating the contrary, wasn't it? :rolleyes:
     
  8. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Sources from 1946 ? :confused:

    The world of aviation research has moved on a little since then. Figures are given in various books ( Mason, Wynn, Cornwell, etc etc ) but to avoid accusations of bias I have used Jan Safarik's Aces Site.

    Total Luftwaffe Losses : 1,887.
    Total confirmed by Polish pilots ( all squadrons ) : 162 ( adjusted for shared kills ).

    By my arithmetic, 8.59%.

    Impressive. But not 15%.
     
  9. Wojtix

    Wojtix Member

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    5% Polish pilots - 10/15% shot downs

    Some sources:

    Books:
    "1941 - The Turning Point" John Foreman / Air Research Publications, 1994
    "Aces High-Vol.1" Christopher Shores and Clive Wiliams / Grub Street-London, 1994
    "Aces High-Vol. 2" Christofer Shores / Grub Street-London, 1999
    "A Fighter Pilot's Life - Gabby" Francis Gabreski / Dell Publishing, 1992
    Biuletyn-XV Swiatowy Zjazd Lotnikow Polskich-Montreal 1984 / Sigma Press
    " Coolham Airfield Remembered" Paul Hamlin and Ann Davies / Paul Hamlin 1996
    "Debliniacy z kodem PK" Waclaw Krol / Wydawnictwo MON, 1984
    "Destiny Can Wait" Polish Air Force Association / William Heinemann, 1949
    "Dieppe 1942 - Najwieksza Bitwa Powietrzna" Norman L.R. Franks / AJ-Press, 1999
    "Duel of Eagles" Peter Townsend / Simon & Schuster, 1972
    "History of the Polish Air Force 1918-1968" Jerzy B. Cynk / Osprey, 1972
    "In Search of Freedom" Jan Borowczyk-Forester / Canadian Polish Research Institute, 2000
    "JG 26. Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" Donald L. Caldwell / Ballantine Books, 1991
    "Lwowskie Puchacze" Jerzy Damsz / Wydawnictwo ZNAK, 1990
    "Most Secret War" R. V. Jones / Coronet, 1979
    "Mustangi nad kontynentem" Waclaw Krol / Wydawnictwo MON, 1982
    "Od Wrony do Spitfire'a" Bernard K. Buchwald / B. K. Buchwald, 1999
    "Ostatni lot" Andrzej R. Janczak / Krajowa Agencja Wydawnicza, 1979
    "Polish Aces of World War 2" / Robert Gretzyngier and Wojtek Matusiak / Osprey, 1998
    "Polish Air Force 1939-1945" Dr. Jan Koniarek / Squadron/Signal Publications 1994
    "Polish Air Force - Chronicle of Main Events" Franciszek Kornicki / P.A.F.A. in Great Britain, 1993
    "Polskie skrzydla na zachodnio-europejskim froncie" Waclaw Krol / Wydawnictwo MON, 1985
    "Przez Ciemnie Nocy" Andrzej R. Janczak / Redakcja PWLOP, 1997.
    "An Illustrated History of the R.A.F." Roy Conyers Nesbit / Coombe Books, 1999
    "Squadron 303" Arkady Fiedler / Letchworth Printers Ltd, 1942
    "Smiglem i Piorem" Boleslaw Korpowski / Polish Art Foundation, Melbourne 1989
    "The Forgotten Few" Adam Zamoyski / Puls Publications Ltd, 1995
    "W Powietrznym Zwiadzie" Wladyslaw Nycz / MON, 1969
    "Wspomnienia z 318 Dywizjonu" Mieczyslaw Galicki / Harasimowicz, Babicz i Spolka, 1996
    " Zarys dzialan polskiego Lotnictwa w Wielkiej Brytanii 1940-1945" Waclaw Krol / WKL, 1981
    "Zranione Skrzydlo" Edward Jaworski / Wydawnictwo Organon, 1995
    "Zumbach's Donalds" Wojtek Matusiak / Model Detail Photo Monograph #5, Rossagraph 2002

    Magazines:
    Aviation History
    Icare
    London News
    Skrzydla - Periodical of the Polish Air Force Association
    Skrzydlata Polska


    First, France's Army did not have five million men in 1940. Maybe three. And the campaign lasted six weeks, cost the Germans 100.000 casualties and France didn't cease to exist as a nation. I am in no way saying that France's better than Poland, just pointing out that both her situations are not similar. </font>[/QUOTE]France situation was much more better in 1940 then Polands in 1939..

    Soldiers - Artillery - Tanks - Fighter/Bombers

    Poland: 950 000 - 4500 - 700 - 400
    Germany: 1 800 000 - 11 000 - 2800 - 2000
    UdSSR: 1 500 000 - 13 500 - 6000 - 1800
    France: 5 000 000 - 11 000 - 2600 - 2800
    Great Britain: 890 000 - 2600 - 1150 - 1900
    (Europe 1939)

    France, Great Britain and Poland should marched into Germany in 1933 ;)
     
  10. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Interesting sources.

    Until now I never knew that 'Gabby' Gabreski flew in the Battle of Britain, or that Dieppe 1942 was a continuation of the Battle of Britain by other means. I have both volumes of 'Aces High' right here and I cannot find any extrapolation of confirmed BofB kills by Nationality. In fact these books only deal with accredited 'aces' and give no information at all about single victories.
     
  11. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Checking the net does not seem to help here at all. I wonder if the Poles can accept this (either)?

    Polish pilots took part in the Battle, and scored 201.5 confirmed victories, 17 of which were scored by the famous Czech ace, Josef Frantisek, who officially was a member of the Polish Air Force

    http://ww2-aviation.net/polavhist/bob.html

    Czech of Polish? Or both? Quite confusing!

    :confused: [​IMG]
     
  12. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Ahhh.....hmmmm....but if he was 'officially' a Pole, then the other Poles in RAF Squadrons might be officially British..... ;)
     
  13. Wojtix

    Wojtix Member

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    Nobody said that Josef Frantisek was a Pole.

    But he was not fight alone. Poles helped him to shot down 17 Germans, and he helped some other Poles to shot down German aircrafts. That was teamwork.

    (Sorry for my English, i do my best ;) )

    [ 27. January 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Wojtix ]
     
  14. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Teamwork ! Rather like the Battle of Britain, then.....
     
  15. AndyW

    AndyW Member

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    I can't help myself, but I think these numbers are a bit...rough.

    I don't want to go too deep into silly numbercrunching, but:

    The numberr of 1.8 million Germans fighting the Poles is the highest possible number (1.5 mn Army/frontier troops in 54 division or division-like units + 300 k Airforce/SS), while the 950 k seems quite low to me (49 Div/Brigades), even knowing that Poland was still mobilizing to her 1.3 mn strength on Sept. 1.

    The 11,000 German Arty pieces are definately including Westfront..unless you don't include grenade launchers and anti-tank in it.

    2,800 German "tanks" (incl. lame Pz.I) sounds reasonable. 700-750 Polish "tanks" (incl. even more lame Tankettes), too.

    Problem with counting Fighters/Bombers: Looks like you compare all German fighter / bomber aircraft (deployed West or East, operational or not) with the number of operationa Polish fighter / bombers. That's of course not a valid approach.

    Now, all this doesn't change the fact that Germany was stronger than Poland, and that Polands chance without the hope of getting outside help within a month or so was in vain. even more as the Sovites were lurking and finally marching in when the end was near, too.

    Germany's losses (KIA,WIA,MIA) were 44 k, btw., compared to roughly 200 k Poles.

    Cheers,
     
  16. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Hey Martin, this guy would use Hogan's Heroes TV show as basis for actual life in a POW Camp. ;)
     
  17. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    Err......."Most Secret War" R. V. Jones / Coronet, 1979" is concerned with the 'Battle of the Beams' among other things, but not Polish flyers? [​IMG]

    Closest he gets is mentioning the early Enigma Polish Intellegence shared with Britian and, much later information on, 'V' weapon tests in Poland? :confused:

    No.9
     
  18. Deep Web Diver

    Deep Web Diver Member

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    The mention of Frantisek piqued my interest. I started looking for information on him and found a very nice site: WW II Ace Stories: Josef Frantisek - Hero of "Battle of Britain."

    Another site I came across while looking for information on Frantisek was not quite as informative, but is nevertheless quite interesting: Czechoslovakian Aces of WW2. I had never before heard of the Slovak Air Force of World War II, let alone seen a painting of any of their aircraft.

    [ 28. January 2004, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: Crapgame ]
     
  19. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Thanx for finding and sharing the Frantisek lifestory, Crapgame!

    I tried to find something on him earlier but the "s" fooled me, I thought it had to be "c".

    ;)
     
  20. Wojtix

    Wojtix Member

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    I can't help myself, but I think these numbers are a bit...rough.

    I don't want to go too deep into silly numbercrunching, but:

    The numberr of 1.8 million Germans fighting the Poles is the highest possible number (1.5 mn Army/frontier troops in 54 division or division-like units + 300 k Airforce/SS), while the 950 k seems quite low to me (49 Div/Brigades), even knowing that Poland was still mobilizing to her 1.3 mn strength on Sept. 1.

    The 11,000 German Arty pieces are definately including Westfront..unless you don't include grenade launchers and anti-tank in it.

    2,800 German "tanks" (incl. lame Pz.I) sounds reasonable. 700-750 Polish "tanks" (incl. even more lame Tankettes), too.

    Problem with counting Fighters/Bombers: Looks like you compare all German fighter / bomber aircraft (deployed West or East, operational or not) with the number of operationa Polish fighter / bombers. That's of course not a valid approach.

    Now, all this doesn't change the fact that Germany was stronger than Poland, and that Polands chance without the hope of getting outside help within a month or so was in vain. even more as the Sovites were lurking and finally marching in when the end was near, too.

    Germany's losses (KIA,WIA,MIA) were 44 k, btw., compared to roughly 200 k Poles.

    Cheers, [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I saw in the profile that you are German, so im answer you in German (my German is much more better then English)

    Es ist nicht richtig das am 1 sep. 1,5 m Polnische Soldaten mobilisiert worden sind. Es war zwar geplant 1,3 – 1,5 zu mobilisieren, dazu kam es nicht aber nicht. Die Mobilisierung wurde immer wieder auf bitten der Franzosen und der Britten verzogert um die Deutschen nicht zu provozieren. Es waren also 950 000 tausend Polnischer Soldaten, die mobilisiert worden sind. Die zahl kann naturlich leicht abweichen.

    Nicht alle kampften gegen die Wehrmacht, ein teil davon stand an der Ost grenze. 200 000 Soldaten gingen ja am ende des Krieges in die Russische Gefangenschaft. Genauere zahlen hab ich jetzt aber nicht.

    Als „Fighters/Bombers“ sind alle Flugzeuge aufgezahlt, auch Spahflugzeuge. Bei den „Panzern“ ist alles aufgezahlt was man damals als „Panzer“ bezeichnet hat, auch kleine und leichte. Bei der Artillerie sind alle Kanonen aufgezahlt, keine Morser. Die Zahlen konnen leicht abweichen.
     

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