Poles at WW2

Wow….Hitler was 1290 years old!!!!! (give or take a nut)

And, in 600AD Great Britain wasn’t Great Britain, Egbert (802-39), became king of Wessex.

”Known as the first King of All England, Egbert was forced into exile at the court of Charlemagne, by the powerful Offa, King of Mercia. Egbert returned to England in 802 and was recognised as king of Wessex. He defeated the rival Mercians at the battle of Ellendun in 825. In 829, the Northumbrians accepted his overlordship and he was proclaimed "Bretwalda" or sole ruler of Britain. ‘Britain’ at this time of course, did not include any part of Ireland or what is now Scotland.”

No.9

[ 02. February 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: No.9 ]

 

Ah! Beg to differ there No.9!
When the native British (Celtic) tribes were pushed into the western fringes of the island by the Anglo-Saxons, quite a few from Cornwall (the area of the Cornovii tribe) migrated to Brittany ("Little Britain") in order to be amongst their Celtic kin, and to escape the Anglo-Saxons.
The mainland was referred to as "Great Britain" by them, to differentiate it from Brittany.
And anyway, Edwin of Northumbria was reckoned to be the first "king of the Britons" in the 600s, according to Bede.
It's all in "Anglo-Saxon England" by Sir Frank M. Stenton...honest!
Wojtix......you're right mate, stranger things have happened!
Regards,
Gordon

[ 02. February 2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]

 

Well I’m aware of the Little Britain and Great Britain references, but I thought it was much later when a consensus of people who ran the country, or most of it, started using the definitions?

‘On the books’, it’s probably the joining of England and Scotland under James I – sorry, James VI baaaaa to some – 1600’s.

Can’t see a lot of reasoning with Edwin with other ‘kings’ floating about? As for the Venerable Bede, wasn’t he pissed most of the time and didn’t he crib bits from other authors and call them his owns?

Anyway, I want a real first king, so I prefer Alfred the Great who kicked the butts of the Valkyrie.

No.9

 

no9,

1)no
2)no
3)Edwin was the first christian king to rule most of England. Apart from the recalcitrant pagans....and the Celtic kingdoms.....
4)Bede's main source was Gildas, so probably to plagiarism.
5)Beating the Great North Army was a great achievement...no arguments there!
Anyway, this is way off topic and sod all to do with the Poles winning the war

Regards,
Gordon

[ 02. February 2004, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]

 

Nobody said that Poland has won the war...

The true is that there were no Poles in BoB, no Poles in Norway, France, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands, north Africa, no Polish Home Army. No Poles have fight together with the Red Army, and Enigma was not breaking by Polish matematicians.

The true is that Great Britain and special agent Mr.Bean have won the war. Respect!

[ 02. February 2004, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Wojtix ]

 

I think this eastern-european chauvinism is becoming disgusting...

The Battle of Britain, the Battle of the Atlantic —the two most decisive battles in the western front— won by the Poles? Because of a few Polish pilots who did what incompetent British, Canadians, Australians, Dutch, French, NZs and Czechs couldn't? Because of some Poles who broke a code which automatically saved ships and sunk German submarines? That's all crap!

And even if it was true, let me tell you that European WWII was not decided in the western front. Or by some chance we haven't found out about the thousands of disguised Poles who stopped 'Barbarossa', destroyed Army Group 'South' in winter 1942-1943 or Army Group 'Centre' in summer 1944?

 

At first take a look on a map, Poland is not in eastern-europe... (your geography knowledge is so weak like my English)

Secondly NOBODY SAID that Poland won the war.

Poland´s effort was on the fourth place behind the USA, UdSSR and Great Britain (in Europe).

And chauvinism is a speciality of Germans, Herr General...

 

Woj,
You know I was joking, and being sarcastic.
I've said the same things to suggestions that Russia won the war single-handed...and America.
In fact, can I just clear something up?
Britain and the Commonwealth did indeed win the war. America helped by bringing the jitterbug to Britain's dance halls, and Russia gave our merchant seaman a change of scenery from America.
There, now we can all relax with our national egos intact.


Regards,
Gordon

 

Poland is in eastern Europe and I really don't see Romanians, Hungarians or Czechs stating nonsense stuff.

Yes, and many times. Shooting down 15% of the aeroplanes in the Battle of Britain, and there is some statement in your Enigma posts which says "without the Poles, the German codes wouldn't have been deciphered".

All these silly arguements —now a plague— about overrating Poland's efforts have been stating the same biased information which none of this forum's members can buy, because they are simply not true.

Poland didn't have a fourth place. And the USA didn't have the first either. You're forgetting about Canada, Australia, France, New Zealand, Belgium...

First of all, I'm not German, second, I don't care what German's specialities are and third, I've not been posting stupid stuff like "France could have defeated Germany by her own in 1940", "French resistance saved the BEF at Dunkirk", "Germany might have conquered the world", "German scientists invented everything"...

And a fourth, I'm not going to respond this thread anymore, nor any other post concerning Poland's 'gigantic' contribution to win WWII —which by the way, involved the PTO too. Didn't know the Poles had a great presence in the USMC...

 

To No.9 - do you really think that if Poland had given Germany their lands, Hitler would stop on that? No, he would ask for more and more, as he had been doing before.

And - I agree with Wojtix - neither him nor I didn't said that the war had been won because of Poland. Can you quote it (but nor Kwaqu's post, but Wojtix's or mine)?

I don't say that Poland won the war too. We have some influence into World War 2 history - not-small influence, which helped Allies, but I agree it wasn't decisive.

And please, don't accuse us of being chouvinists. We have just wanted to mention about our, Polish achievements in WW2.

 

I think it´s good to remember Stalin´s view on the question on important parts of land:

" The bigger nation´s needs are more important than a smaller nation´s. "

So for him and I´d say to Hitler as well I´d think if he wanted it ,it was rightfully his from the beginning, whatever it is. If someone was against that he could eliminate the obstacle whatever means usable.

 

"Interesting" maps:

Warsaw 1938:

http://www.biega.com/blwwa38.html

Warsaw ghetto 1940-44

http://www.biega.com/ghetto.html

Poland 1939-1945

http://www.biega.com/museumAK/poland40.jpg

Ghettos in occupied Poland 1939-1941

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/polghetto.html

And all the maps on Poland you ever need:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~polwgw/maps.html

[ 03. February 2004, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

 

” do you really think that if Poland had given Germany their lands, Hitler would stop on that? No, he would ask for more and more, as he had been doing before”

No of course not, and that wasn’t the point I was making.

Lets put it another way. Mrs Bronski was caught driving a car while drunk out of her mind and crossing a red light before crashing into a shop front. She goes to her grandmother and asks if she should wear her long black dress in court or her low-cut, short two-piece? Her grandmother asks if she remembers the conversation they had before her wedding night when she wanted to know if she should wear a long night-gown or a short nightie? Mrs Bronski asked why what she wore on her wedding night had anything to do with what she should wear in court? Her grandmother said because the answer then is the same as the answer now. “It doesn’t matter what you wear because you’re going to get stuffed anyway!”

Poland, or what was constituted as Poland in 1918/9, was weak and in a very precarious position. Arguably it was little or no better off than defeated Germany or post revolution Russia. By the same token the European victors were also in a mess. Pomposity, arrogance, Imperialism and shear bloody-mindedness caused the mess as it usually does when countries act in this way instead of with a bit of tolerance and understanding.

Right or wrong (and in respect of comparatively history prior to W.W.I – with reason), Germany/Prussia and the Soviets felt parts of the newly allocated Poland belonged to them. Just as Poland felt about parts of the new Czechoslovakia, despite the Polish understanding for autonomy and self determination!

Germany and the Soviets shaped up. The Soviets weren’t very proficient despite their size (as was found to be the case – Japan, Finland, Warsaw) until the middle of the second war, and Germany was certainly talking-the-talk and seen to start walking-the-walk in Spain. Whatever, sufficient writing was on the wall. Political opposites such as Hitler and Stalin were working together as the Poles must have been aware of? Apart from any anti-war sentiments, Britain and France were in no position to police Europe let alone be counted on for any enforcement of Versailles.

Poland couldn’t defend herself and in the interests of self preservation had no business acting the tough guy and tick-off her much stronger neighbours. Obscured in the books is the deplorable act of Poland’s seizure of part of Czechoslovakia, which, at the very least she should have protested – not shared in!

Giving ‘away’, or ‘back’ depending on your point of view, parts of Poland may not have deterred Hitler from wanting to reach the Soviet border, but it may have been the difference between a bloody double invasion with the Soviets, and a walk-through as with Czechoslovakia? Unfortunately for Jewish citizens it probably wouldn’t have made any difference, but for some 3 or 4 million others?

Anyway, in between fighting and rolling over lay a number of middle paths which may not give you what you want but may keep you alive. Everyone has the right to live (and die) one day as a lion, but don’t blame anyone else for your choice.

War dead (approx)
Poland_6,850,000
Czech___400,000

No.9

 

The Russians definitely wanted their share of Poland as if I remember correct it was Stalin himself messing things up in the Warsaw area in 1919-1920 (?) and surely he remembered it...

AS well Molotov´s comments say it all what they thought of Poland:

Molotov called Poland "the bastard of Versailles."

http://www.ce-review.org/99/13/polandnews13.html

After the partition of Poland, Molotov crowed that "the bastard of the Versailles Treaty [Poland] has once and for all ceased to exist."

http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/histpol/hist108/lec10.html

I believe that leaves no question about that. And I cannot think that Stalin was not behind that comment as all Molotov ever said was given to him by Stalin. So even without German interest in Danzig the Poles were in terrible danger from the east.

I think it is also of interest that the Poles were , it seems, the first to make co-operation with the nazi government by agreeing a non-aggression pact in 1934.This sorta ruined the Polish relations with the French ( at least ) I´d guess. This is something that cannot be forgotten. I´d definitely call this walking on a tight rope.

[ 04. February 2004, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

 

I think you’re right Kai, and in terms of alliances between Poland and France, I think it goes back to 1921/2. Though France got the bulk of war repayments and some territory it didn’t get all it wanted from Germany or all the guarantees from Britain and the USA. Though hardly meaningful, France sought out and entered into several alliances with minor powers such as Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Estonia, and Latvia. None, including France, were in much of a position to honour the bold military commitments of these except in a most minor way. The French supplied large sums of money for armaments and reconstruction of Poland, but (a) the Poles were expected to buy French weapons and (b) France was to get a crock load of money from Germany.

No doubt all the countries France aligned with felt they were getting a ‘big brother’ on their side? Poland felt it was on a bit of a roll at this time, flexing its donated and acquired ‘muscles’. A referendum on government was held in Upper Silesia and the majority clearly voted to be part of Germany. Poland wouldn’t accept this and threatened to wage war on Germany? How brave is that – it’s like going up to Lennox Lewis when he’s in hospital with broken arms and legs and threatening to punch him out! The League of Nations tried to mediate but couldn’t get Poland to agree to anything less than a partition of the area with Germany. Poland still kicked-up until Germany was forced to cede its part to Poland in 1922.

And yet, when the people of Vilna voted to be part of Poland in 1922, Poland just took the lot despite protests from Lithuania!

1925 Post the Locarno Conference, France was unhappy with the lack of concern and support for French concerns over the emergent Germany. France now sets-up new separate mutual assistance treaties with Poland and Czechoslovakia in the event of a German attack on any of the signatories. The French developed an extensive alliance system with Poland and the ‘Little Entente’ powers and began construction of the Maginot Line.

1933 Poland and Germany sign an agreement over Danzig, but, in 1934 Poland attempted to balance its alliance with France with German friendship in an attempt to avoid involvement in foreign quarrels. This agreement represented the first breach in the French alliance system in Eastern Europe and the Polish government became the first friendly power to reach an understanding with the new nazi government in Germany.

1935 and Germany announces plans to rearm. France sought to bring Poland, Germany, and Russia into an eastern pact which would serve to maintain some stability, but, both the Germans and Polish (now a virtual dictatorship), avoided this plan.

1936 and Germany marches into the Rhineland. France (and her Allies) do nothing, and Poland sees her ‘big buddy’ as, militarily, a waste of time. If France won’t act on her doorstep, why would or could she act to help Poland?

1936 and Mussolini moves troops to the Austrian border and prevents German invasion of Austria and brings about a treaty between the two. Nothing to do with Poland, but not many remember this so I just thought I’d throw it in.

1937 Poland and peasant strikes spread across the country to which the government responds with bloodshed.

1938 As most of Europe was preoccupied with the German absorption of Austria, the Polish government issued a series of demands from the Lithuanians. Faced with the threat of war, the Lithuanian government immediately agreed to all of the Polish demands, including recognition of the status quo in eastern Europe. The Lithuanian capitulation prevented the crisis from escalating.

1938 Post Munich and the Polish army occupied Teschen, and Poland gained 400 square miles of territory and 240,000 new citizens, well under half were actually Polish.

1938 The Czechoslovak government provided Ruthenian with full autonomy and the region was renamed Carpatho-Ukraine. This region took on an important new role as the base for Ukrainian nationalist agitation, with the apparent support of the German government. The Polish government attempted to divide the new region between Poland, Hungary, and Romania, but the German government frustrated all attempts at annexation.

1938 As a result of the failure of the Hungarian and Czecho-Slovak governments to reach an agreement on the future of Slovakia, the German and Italian governments intervened and issued a joint decision. Hungary received a broad strip of Czecho-Slovak territory from southern Slovakia and Ruthenia, which included one million people and 5,000 square miles of land. The Germans and Italians rejected a Hungarian demand for a common frontier with Poland, a claim supported by the Polish government. As a result of dismemberment, Czecho-Slovakia lost a total of five million inhabitants and 16,000 square miles of territory to Germany, Poland, and Hungary.

No.9

 

The population of Wilno was:

Poles: 65,9%
Jews: 28%
Ukrainians/Ruthenians: 0,1%
White Ruthenians: 0,9 %
Russians: 3,8%
Lithuanians: 0,8%
Germans: 0,3%
Others: 0,2%
(1921)

Identity and Assimilation among the Poles of Zaolzie
By Kevin Hannan

An imposing man in his mid-thirties, Karol Siwek serves as mayor in Sucha Gorna, a village in the Zaolzie district of the Czech Republic. I paid Siwek a visit one Saturday and found him in his overalls working in the barn behind his house. His sister-in-law teaches in the local Polish-language elementary school. Like much of the village's ethnic Polish population, Siwek's family was living here when the oldest local records were compiled. "We were here three hundred years before the Czechs and we'll be here when the Czechs are gone," he states. There were four ethnic Czechs and 1,900 ethnic Poles living in Sucha Gorna in 1900. Today the 2,485 ethnic Czechs outnumber the 1,228 ethnic Poles. Assimilation with the Czech majority is the trend in Sucha Gorna and throughout Zaolzie. Despite the pride that Siwek and his neighbors demonstrate in their Polish ethnicity, there is no guarantee that future generations of Poles in Zaolzie will survive.

Zaolzie is a part of the former Duchy of Teschen (Cieszyn in Polish), now part of the Czech Republic, which was ruled from 1290 until 1653 by a branch of the Piasts, or the Polish royal dynasty. Few regions of Europe have known so many different cultural influences. Teschen Silesia is located at one end of the Moravian Gate, a lowland passage between the Carpathian and Sudeten Mountains which historically has separated the Baltic Sea and the north European plain to the Mediterranean. At least as early as the ninth century a fortified settlement existed on the site of modern Teschen. The city developed as the administrative and cultural center of the Duchy of Teschen. Sharing borders with Moravia, Slovakia and the Polish Ma¸opolska [Little Poland], the Duchy evolved as the southeastern-most territory of Silesia. During the Middle Ages, the borders of the Polish, Czech, and Hungarian kingdoms met in the Beskid Mountains east of the city.

The reappearance of Slavic states after World War I reflected the modern trend to recognize the rights to sovereignty of ethnic groups possessed of a distinct language and territorial integrity. The delimitation of political borders however was complicated by the existence of regions such as Teschen Silesia, where the population was ethnically mixed and national identity was in dispute. In the twentieth century Teschen Silesia has been the source of a bitter dispute between Poland and Czechoslovakia. Ethnicity and the spoken language formed the basis for Polish claims on the region. The Czech claims were based on dynastic ties and economic considerations. Both sides claimed considerable literary tradition associated with the region. By the 1920 decision of the Allied Powers, the former Duchy of Teschen was divided. Czechoslovakia received the richer industrialized territory in the west, which the Poles called Zaolzie, "the land beyond the Olza River", and Poland received the eastern half, populated primarily by peasant farmers. The newer suburbs of the city of Teschen, subsequently called Cesky Tesin, became part of Czechoslovakia, while Poland received the old town. Ironically, support for Czechoslovak rule had been most vocal in that part of the former Duchy awarded to Poland, while the main centers of pro-Polish sentiment became part of Czechoslovakia.

At that time, one of the local political figures was Jozef Kozdon, mayor of Cesky Tesin in the interwar period and leader of the Slazak movement. Before World War 1, Kozdon advocated the establishment of a neutral Teschen, a Little Switzerland in the Beskids. While the Slazak policies were at first pro-German and only after 1920 pro-Czech, KoÏdon and his Slazakowcy were motivated primarily by anti-Polish prejudice.

In the period between the two world wars, Poland was not reconciled to the loss of Zaolzie. Following the betrayal of Czechoslovakia at Munich in 1938 and German annexation of Czech territory, Poland seized that part of the former Duchy which it considered linguistically and ethnically Polish. Until 1939, when most of the region was attached to the Nazi Reich, the Polish border stood just to the east of Ostrava and Frydek-Mistek. After World War 2, the region was briefly a source of tension. Since both countries were occupied by the Soviets, whose sympathies were on the Czechoslovak side, Czechoslovakia and Poland in 1947 signed a treaty ratifying the border of 1920.

[ 05. February 2004, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Wojtix ]

 

Central Europe

Central Europe is the region of Europe between Eastern and Western Europe, frequently taken to include Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, and Slovenia. The list of countries that are sometimes included in this region is however much larger, and many times it includes Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Romania. The German term "Mitteleuropa" is sometimes used for states that came into existence after the Habsburg Monarchy dissolved.



[ 05. February 2004, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Wojtix ]

 

Polish contribution to World War II (partII)

"At the end of WWII, the Polish army in the west numbered 225,000 soldiers. The Communist government organised its own army, the Polish People's army, which at the end of the war numbered close to 500,000 soldiers.In addition, the Home Army (Armia Krajowa), the Polish resistance forces in Poland itself, at their peak numbered around 200,000 regular soldiers and many more conspirators and sympathizers."

"Polish Air forces fought in the Battle of France (133 pilots - they achieved 55 victories and lost 15 men). Later Polish pilots fought in the Battle of Britain; the Polish Air Force fought also in Tunisia (Skalski circus), during raids on Germany, and in China. At the end at the war there were about 12,000 Polish airmen in the RAF and USAAF."

"Big chunk of Polish Navy has been destroyed during the September campaign. However, the majority of big ships Polish Navy continued to fight in alliance with British Fleet. At different stages of war It consisted of 2 cruisers and great number of smaller ships, including 3 destroyers and 2 submarines, that escaped from the Baltic Sea in 1939."

Cruisers:
ORP "Dragon"
ORP "Conrad"

Destroyers
ORP "Blyskawica" (Lightning)
ORP "Grom" (Thunder)
ORP "Burza" (Storm)
ORP "Garland"
ORP "Orkan"
ORP "Orkan II"
ORP "Huragan" (Hurricane)
ORP "Piorun" (Thunderbolt)

Escort Destroyers
ORP "Krakowiak"
ORP "Kujawiak"
ORP "Slazak"

Submarines
ORP "Orzel" (Eagle)
ORP "Wilk" (Wolf)
ORP "Dzik" (Warthog)
ORP "Jastrzab" (Hawk)
ORP "Sokol" (Falcon)

Submarine chasers
CH-11
CH-15

And several other minor ships, transport ships, merchant marine auxiliary vessels and recce boats

Battles
Famous battles and campaigns at which fought Polish regular soldiers:
Polish September Campaign
British campaign in Norway (Battle of Narvik)
Campaign in France
Battle of Britain
Battle of the Atlantic (1940)
Battle of Tobruk
Battle of Monte Cassino
Battle of Falaise
Operation Market Garden (Battle of Arnhem)
Battle of Ancona
Battle of Berlin
(In World War II the Battle of Berlin was the assault on Berlin by forces of the Soviet Union and Poland in April and May 1945)

Technical inventions
Copy of Enigma ciphering machine was created by a group of polish matematicians (Jerzy Rozycki, Marian Rejewski and Henryk Zygalski) and handed over to the allies in 1939.

Józef Kosacki invented Polish mine detector which was used throughout the war by allied armies.

Vickers Tank Periscope MK.IV was indeed invented by engineer Rudolf Gundlach and patented in 1936 as Gundlach Peryskop obrotowy. It was then copied by the British and used in most tanks of WWII, including soviet T-34, british Crusader, Churchill, Valentine, Cromwell and american Sherman. The main advantage of this periscope was that the tank commander did no longer have to turn his head in order to look backwards.

Bomb hatches system was invented by Wladyslaw Swiatecki in the thirties and was used, among others, in polish PZL P.37 Elk bomber. In 1940 Swiatecki handed over the plans of his invention to the british authorities, which used it in most british bombers of WWII. In 1943 a modernized version was created by Jerzy Rudlicki for american B-17 Flying Fortress bomber.

Rubber windscreen wiper was invented by polish pianist Jozef Hofman

Henryk Magnuski, a polish engineer working for Motorola company, invented in 1940 the SCR-3 radio, the first small radio receiver/transmitter to have manually-set frecuency. It was used extensively in American Army and was nick-named Walkie-Talkie.

(From Wikipedia)

A funny story about a bear

"When the Soviet Union was attacked by Germany, in June 1941, Polish POWs were released from prison camps and set up an army headed by General Anders. Many civilians were taken under the protection of this army which was allowed to make its way to Persia (modern-day Iran) and then on to Egypt. This army, the Polish Second Corps, fought with distinction in Italy, their most notable victory being that at Monte Cassino, in May 1944, and which opened up the road to Rome for the Allies as a whole. One of the "heroes" of the Polish Second Corps was Wojtek, a brown bear adopted in Iran as their mascot; at Monte Cassino Wojtek actually helped in the fighting by carrying ammunition for the guns. He died, famous and well-loved, in Edinburgh Zoo in 1964, aged 22."

[ 05. February 2004, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Wojtix ]

 

That's interesting - I'd always thought that the windscreen wiper was invented by Mary Anderson of Alabama, who patented the idea in November 1903.

 

I was wondering which part of the 'bomb hatches' was adopted by the British for most of their bombers in WWII ?

The Manchester first flew on 25th July 1939 and used the same hydraulic bomb door system which was later enlarged for the Lancaster - I have been unable to find references to any later redesign. The Halifax first flew on 25th October 1939 and used Type B doors designed by Phillips & Powis ; these were later changed to Type C manufactured by Evans Bellhouse.