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Prague Refuses Apology to Sudeten Germans

Discussion in 'Post War 1945-1955' started by kerrd5, Jun 14, 2011.

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  1. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Thanks for your input Rittervon. I'm fully aware these events are still very vivid in the minds of the last survivors who lived them. Please tell your father some respectfully understand him.
     
  2. rkline56

    rkline56 USS Oklahoma City CG5

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    Rittervon,

    Yes, Sir. That is a terribly bad story. I would argue that the people who did that to a five year old boy are human only by biological classification and that they actually represent the sub-human race of predatory, selfish, simple minded, thugs, _______________, _____________________, fill in the blanks that rear their ugly heads whenever rule of law is overturned or sidestepped and base emotion and mob rule take over. I hope your father has had a good life and that he finds some peace in his lifetime. Richard
     
  3. baupionier419

    baupionier419 Member

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    hello Skipper.
    Killings were not systematic ? you are totally wrong. For instant, in Prag the czech ressistance generated lists of all living germans in prag, they did exactly know the working position ,the home and name of every german in Prag. It was systematic ! Sudetia was a slaughter house right in front of the world public eye. There were only damned german (nazis) who burned in Prag ?? not only were they nazis, even if, there was not the right to burn them ( ever heard of Prager Fackel ??) they were germans, so the russian were the "friends" of the sudeten germans they stopped the slaughter uncounted times.....

    Prager Fackel: hang a person at a street light pole with the feet up, put gasoline on it and burn it. eyewitnesses told of 16 year old hitler youth who were burned at the so famous Wenzel Place in Prag

    so why
    - uncounted women, children old people killed. why ?
    - even worse fleeing german forces if not bundled in bigger counts were killed immediately. why ?
    - When SS members were discovered, they were killed instantly. Why ? SS members of fighting units not of kz !

    The bavarian local County administration digitalised the German Sudeten Newspaper from 1951 til 1955. Unfortunately most of you do not read german. There, alot of "memorys" of the pre war days had been written down. Reading this ist like reading news directly from hell.

    A terrible story is the Jägerndorfer death march through my ancestors small City in Sudetenland. The city is called Würbenthal. About 10.000 Inhabitans from the german City Jägerndorf had been forced to a death march to the german borderline. This march came trough Würbenthal. Not Soldiers, but of all age, women, children babys old people. When a member of this death march fell back he or she was shot instantly or beaten to death. Now think about to let so many innocent and not marching capable people march with the shooting devil in the neck. This was August 1945. My Father saw this terrible march. The Würbenthal Germans were not allowed to give Water and food. How many died on this march is not known. even so, how many of this poor souls reached German border. Not systematic ?

    there are uncounted storys about the pre war time 1945. Whenever I read such a sad story, I cannot understand why
    1. Prag do not show responsiblity ( germany did and do it til today)
    2. Those known murderer, why not punish them for what they did ? see the Court trail Demjanuk in Germany. A possible SS Kz watch guard in his 90ties. Why not equality to all people, and put those czech murderer to court as well ?
    3. Why are the benesch Decrees still valid? isn 't czech country not a civilizied EU Member ? Ever heard of this Decrees ?

    Bene

    I can tell you why, they still have the fear, that the expellation of the Sudetengermans might be unlawful and they fear that the germans trying to sue them bring them to court. Therefore there will be NO Apology
    And this fear is still valid til today
     
  4. rkline56

    rkline56 USS Oklahoma City CG5

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    I think it was the size of the file that caused this double post. Pardon me.
     
  5. rkline56

    rkline56 USS Oklahoma City CG5

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    [video=youtube;MSrGPzkhLZ8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSrGPzkhLZ8&feature=related[/video]

    This subject gets more interesting and sad the more one looks. Each group will spin the numbers to their benefit. The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. A massive cover up exists. There are some related videos if you watch this one. This a lecture and is fairly tame (recently uploaded to you tube, not many views yet). Some of the videos deeper in the search are pretty raw and graphic. It is difficult to tell who is "wagging the dog" ( a good movie by the way) but further study is, most likely, warranted. A good bet that many mass graves are waiting to be discovered but Prague wants them kept locked away so we may never know. One video is entitled, "The Sons Shall Reap the Sins of their Father's. I couldn't find it the second time I looked hmm?


    Source: Encyclopedia Opentopia

    They also note 7,100,000 million East Germans expelled by the Soviets from their East German sector. These expelled people were lucky to get out. I imagine this was after the Soviets had tired of summary executions.

    The fact that this occurred does not mean the events will ever be rectified. I agree no apology will be issued. All that remains to be seen is what kinds of events will rise to the surface as time passes.
     
  6. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    "Ethnic cleansing" is never bloodless, peple will not abbandon their homes unless under serious threat and for such a threat to exist some atrocities must have occurred. In my pesonal definition there is a difference with outright genocide in that the stated objective is to "move" not "kill" the target group, even if keeping them alive during the move is not a priority. The end result it's still a pretty horrible thing. IMO the difference is very significant to lawyers and politicians, ethnic cleansing has been practiced by almost every nation at some time so calling it a "crime against humanity" is unacceptable to them, they would be condemning themselves.

    The post-ww2 events are still an open wounds, it's possibly too early for historical research to avoid firing up bad memories, here in Italy we have two issues best avoided unless you want to risk blood. (Sud-Tirol from ww1 and ww2, when many German speakers opted for German citienship during the Geman occupation, and Istria from ww2). Part of my mother's family was from Istria and they left with practically just the clothes on their back, many were not so lucky, nobody will call the foibe "genocide" but ........
     
  7. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    I know Istrian Italinas have been victims of Ethnic cleansing too. I was in Pula last Summer and found quite a few Italian WW2 relics at the local fleemarket, including a workbook .
     
  8. scipio

    scipio Member

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    Actually I think that the Czechs do have a case against them with regard to the Sudeten Germans.

    But the bit that I can't stomache is the statement:

    Yes - Germany is good at splashing the money around in its self-interest but the litmus test is how many war criminals it let escape justice and still does - I realise that this is taking the thread off subject but too many guilty evil men were protected by the West German State and its successor.
     
  9. Rittervon

    Rittervon Member

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    From my vantage point here in the US I don't see Germany trying to "splash money around". They are the ONLY country I have ever seen that has apologized over and over and over again for a war! They set up funds to pay people reparations, they pay country's for their cost in fighting them, they set up momorials for those who they hurt. Two years ago I spent 3 weeks in Germany and any time the war came up I was apologized to by people in their twenties up to fifty. These wonderful people were not responsible for this war but their heartfelt apologies were touching. Lets see, England, France, Italy, Iran, russia, Iraq just to name a few have all started a war. How many have done what Germany has done to try and say "sorry"?I just don't see how your comments work with logic or facts. Germany seems to prosecute anyone who they find with responsible Nazi ties. Even when they are in another country and they are 80-90 years old. I guess I just don't see it!
     
  10. Markus Becker

    Markus Becker Member

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    Except for the premeditated muerder of thousands of civillians. But hey, that was ok as they were part of the enemy people. In this case there is no need to bother with checking if the individuals actually did anything wrong. Or give them a trial. Wholesale killing&deporting is just fine. No need for apologies.
     
  11. Mehar

    Mehar Ace

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    They do go after them, not in the same way as the hunters do but via extraditions for suspected criminals, local arrests, etc. With about 20 million soldiers having fought in World War 2 it's not feasible at all to knock on everyones door and do an investigation when they're only after a minute fraction of that number but if they have reason to believe a criminal is hiding generally they do go after them. I don't think any other country/government has gone to these lengths for anything.

    Which criminals did Germany help hide or escape? The only ones that I know of that were basically given free reign or added a layer of complexity to things like extradition were those taken via Operation Paperclip and similar programs post war.
     
  12. scipio

    scipio Member

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    View attachment 13642

    Ok don't want to send this thread too far off line but its the same in american english.

    "Actions speak louder than words"

    The above is the latest in a long line of legal niceties where German courts have not acted

    Obviously not reported in the USA
     

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  13. syscom3

    syscom3 Member

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    If I was civilian in one of the occupied countries that were brutalized by the Nazi's; I would have put some bullets in their backs when the time came.

    The Germans were brutal, genocidal, savage and had a blood lust in enslaving others. And the ethnic Germans who wholeheartedly supported their cousins from the homeland .... everything was fine and dandy while Germany was winning the war. And when the tides turned against, they sure had a nice bit of payback.
     
  14. Rittervon

    Rittervon Member

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    Ok, I understand Syscom3, you feel all Germans are bad and it's ok for anyone on your mind, to do what they want to them. So my question is how long do the people have to be repentant for what their fathers, grand fathers and great grandfathers did , before they can be forgiven. Is just a hundred years ok? Or is it still ok to mistreat them and make them be humble 200, 300? Or are you talking thousands? Should I be told I'm a bad terrible murderer even tho I was born here in the United States. You know my parents and grandparents came from Germany after world war 2? Can I be trusted. Some people are cold and not unforgiving they are Never Forgiving.
     
  15. syscom3

    syscom3 Member

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    Quote me where I said all Germans are bad people. Any German born after the war was not responsible for what happened.

    Whatever fate befell the German people and the ethnic Germans of the Sudentenland just after the war ended is their tough luck. The magnitude of the atrocities committed dictates that any complaints they make, is irrelevant and is a concerted effort by revisionists to try to make them as being the victim of a war they started or supported wholeheartedly.
     
  16. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    Yeah, the USA news media probably couldn't squeeze it in between their updates on American Idol, Jersey Shore and Bra-ngelina's latest adoption. Those reports are so-o-o much more important than anything else going on in the world. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    The trouble in this matter is that some paid for the attrocities committed by others. It can be understood, not justified. Killing someone or taking a home from an innocent because one is a victim of a criminal, makes one a criminal too.
     
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  18. Rittervon

    Rittervon Member

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    Oh... Now I understand! Such compassion. Such love of fellow man. I'll tell my father who doesn't like to talk of being expelled he's just a revisionist. Sorry dad I understand what happen to you was your tough luck. Oh I understand u were only five years old. Tough. Oh well, and your baby brother that was killed and four years old. Oh well, he was a bad sudetenlander.But I'm glad to hear that I'm cool. I'm not a bad person because I was born after the war. Whew? That was close. Here's the thing if the Germans are bad and awful for what they did then ok they were bad! But now a person can do the same awful things to bad "defeated German 4 & 5 year old baby's and they are morally good? I don't believe it. If it is wrong to rape, pillage, plunder, kill, steal, it's wrong period. Then whoever rapes, pillage, plunders and steals are morally disgusting people. I don't care if they are the winners in a conflict or not. Personally I am not a revisionist. I'm some who likes to know what happened and am ashamed by the lack of humanity. Some of the Germans were inhumain and they were morally sick. But now it's said that people can make human torches to light up a city road and it's "ok" because they lit it with Germans. This is not a revision, this happened. Is this ok for one man to do to another? Especially a defeated looser in a conflict. Its sad either it's wrong for anyone to do this or it's ok to do this. Me I say it's wrong to rape, kill, steal from our fellow man. Period. To justify such actions only makes one a partner to such actions. To me it doesn't matter if the person committing the theft, rape or murder is rich or poor, white or black, or a winner or looser of a war. If they do these things they suck and are wrong! So yes I will condem the persons who did these things to my father and his brother especially because of their young age.
     
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  19. scipio

    scipio Member

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    Look Von Ritter - I beleive you are both right and wrong.

    Yes we should know about the suffering of the German people at the hands of other nations and just because, with the help of the NAZI thugs they descended into an utter barbarism without any parallel in recent European History, does not make their later treatment right.

    Somewhere in this thread someone made the point that The Sudeten Germans were more Nazi than others then someone else made the point that this was understandable because they were badly treated by the Czechs. BUT then I could take you back to 1642 when the Czechs (Bohemians) lost their independance at the Battle of White Mountain to (German) Austrians and had Catholicism thrust down their Protestant necks - 300 years of bad treatment at the hands of Germans!

    Two wrongs don't make a right and vendettas once started are very difficult to stop.

    I know many German people and have worked for a German company - some of whom are friends to this day. I know the strengths and weaknesses of those that I have met (and everyone of them would condemn the Falklands campaign. So we beg to differ).

    They all want the War to be forgotten and I agree.

    The sins of the father should not be visited onthe son.

    My argument is with the generation that is now finally fading from the scene. They were too good at protecting their own kind - well abetted by the American authorities and to a lesser extent my own Government, both of whom were too interested in combatting the Communist threat than seeing that justice was done.

    But please don't tell me how wonderful the German Government is and was at persuing war criminals - that I really can't stand.
     
  20. Rittervon

    Rittervon Member

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    I'm sorry all, I got off track from the beginning. The question really is" should Prague apologize to Sudeten Germans?" In not trying to be controversial. My personal opinion is yes and this is why. Germans and Czechs are very close. They share a border, there future is intertwined. To move on from the past , I think both parties have to be adult/mature and apologize. That is the way in a friendship or a marriage. Some times in a marriage and a friendship both sides feel they were wronged but they still apologize to make the friendship/marriage work. If both sides, the German government and the Czech government want their friendship to be lasting then both sides have to apologize. If a person can't get past a simple apologe then maybe they don't want to be friends or be married at all and that is a different discussion.
     
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