Responsability for the outbreak of the war in Europe

Let´s say - it was a sound mixture of Realpolitik and lacking consequence..., OK?

 

I have no problem believing that between Stalin and Hitler a war in Europe was going to take palce by 1942 at the latest. I also think that it is no great leap to accept that Stalin wanted to incite a war between GB/France & Germany to then have the Communists attack a weakened Germany. I suppose Stalin was somewhat surprised by the ease with which Geramny overran the West and that this may have required hinm to alter his plans somewhat.

In short, Stalin as the ultimate origin of WWII? Why not.

 

If one accepts the thesis that a cooperation of socialists and communists in 1932 elections would have kept Hitler from power (and the fact that Stalin opposed such a cooperation) - it would be Stalin as the ultimate instigator and Hitler - as a very effective executor/secondary instigator.

How about that?

 

Works for me.

 

Wow! I am beginning to get through with my iconoclastic message!

When there was the great parade und Fest in Moskau for 4 days ago, I could not stop laughing (through tears). The world´s greatest (including the apologizing Schroder) were paying tribute and thanking the perpetrator.

Well, not exactly so, but the place chosen for the festivitas - Kremlin - was probably the worst possible. Because, although Stalin and communism were at least co-responsible for the millions of dead in Europe and the destruction of Europe as a whole, it was the Russian nation who was absolutely the greatest victim of the system and of Stalin.

So - here I will allow myself to pay my tribute to them: Long Live the Poor, Abused Russian Nation! Let Fortune help them to rise again form ashes to their former Greatness!

 

Cooperation between socialists and communists has only ever succeded in France in 1936. In the early days of the Weimar republic, the social democratic government surpressed a communist revolt. I highly doubt that the above cooperation would have been possible.

There is one other inconsistency in an assumed plot by Stalin that caused WW2. The one thing that brought Hitler to supreme executive power was the emergency he declared in order to clear out the German communists. If this was Stalin's intention then it was a sorry decision indeed, since it deprived him of the only communist-supportive group in all of Germany. He must surely have realized that Hitler wouldn't exactly spare the communists.

Stalin and the Comintern as far as I know never encouraged communists to cooperate with socialists because to them, socialists were the worst of all betrayers of Marxist-Leninist doctrine.

 

See, it succeded in France, in the absence of such a savage. The more so would it have succeded in Germany. The common enemy was so obvious and unpredictable.

I can see that you don´t "feel" Stalin very well. For him every person or group or nation was expendable.
There is a funny story about some German communists (and comunist spies of USSR) who, after hitler abolished their party, wanted to become members of CPSU. Throug their Comintern contact they asked Stalin. The answer was - OK. So they insisted on paying their monthly due to the courier, to be delivered to Moscow. They only wanted to get their Soviet Party cards. The courier collected their money (this was their must) and told them that the cards, for security reasons, were being stored in the Kremlin.

At one point, Stalin thought it wise to withdraw them to Russia. When they arrived, the first thing they asked was of course their Party cards. There were, as you can imagine, no cards made for them. Soon after Stalin killed them all.

See, Stalin had enough of his own Germans in Russia to run DDR (or whole Germany, if necessary) after the war. The "natives" as unreliable would probably have been killed upon the entry of RKKA in Germany in 1941-2. He hadn´t such freedom in 1945 due to various factors.
They were in NKVD, there were alo German helpers or chauffeurs with every major Soviet commander in June ´41.

 

Yeah, Germany is not alone responsible for WW2, so



This Map was Printed in the Newspaper „Dziennik Poznanski" on 26th June 1939. We will hear of this later in the following posts on this subject.

It states the „Historic Borders" of Poland. One can see that Hamburg, Kiel, Erfurt, Braunschweig, Dresden, Berlin, Rostock ect are all Polish and even the Czechs (Prague and Brünn) belong to them

Thus, according to the Versailles Dictate, a corridor was drawn between East Prussia and Germany, giving West Prussia, the Province of Posen and an edge of Silesia to Poland. Danzig was declared to a „Free City" and put under the commisary rule of the „League of Nations".

After Poland constituted itself as a State and formed a Goverment, it built 2 concentration camps in the district of Posen: the camp Szcypiorno in the year 1918 and Stralkow in 1919. In these camps over 16.000 Germans were held captive and mistreated.

The only reason the Poles were able to get Posen from the Allies was that they militarily occupied it, before the conferance even decided on the subject.

§88 of the Versailles Dictate demanded, that in Upper Silesia plebescites had to take place to decide whether the population wanted to belong to Germany or Poland.

The Poles (well armed by the French) started to terrorize the population in Upper-Silesia by sending armed groups across the border, which were organised by the chauvenistic Polish imperialist Wojciech Korfanty (I might add, he was member of the Reichstag as speaker of the polish minoretys in Imperial Germany. He died 17th August 1939 in prison because of fraud delicts. He was Polish PM 1922 - 1923)

Korfanty led the 3 major "insurrections" in Silesia (17th August 1918, 19/20.August 1920 and 3rd May 1921)




British Captain Riddle (left) and Italian Lt. De Martino (right) found three Bodies of Ethnic Germans mutilated by Poles in von Bracken, Skriba near the town of Malapana. They were probably the victims of the Korfanty-Bandits or the Bojowka Polska.

Although great terror and pressure was practiced by the Polish side, 60% of the population voted for Germany. During the Plebescite, the Poles had already statione irregular troops along the border, to intervene if the election did not bring the wished results. The Bojowka Polska was founded, a Terror organisation consisting of 20 - 30 Groups of 5 - 7 man squads, which were armed by the French to liquidate and murder important Silesian representatives, police officials etc.

The Inter-Allied commision who led the plebescite now had to decide what should happen. Percival (UK) and De Marinis (Italy) wanted to respect the will of the majority,; Le Ronde (France) favoured Korfanti who wanted entire Silesia and its Industrial regions. The French simply abandoned their Weapon-Depots which was an open invitation to the Korfanti-Units to arm themselves. In Kattowitz the Korfantis took control of the Railway system, locked up all German railway personnel, and grabbed the weapons out of the French depot. The Italians were not able to resist, because they were outnumbered. Col. Crayton managed to chase 2 bandits away with his horsewhip, who had tried to steal 2 MGs.

Since the English Military saw, that the situation was escalating and the Germans had nothing to defend themselves with (Police and Rual-Guards were disarmed according to Versailles), they gave orders not to intervene, if Germans tried to arm themselves.

I dont want to go into too many details of the Battles. The Polish tried to conquer Silesia and were repelled by German Freikorps consisting of men from across Germany and Austria.

The French tried to pressure England to support their views. Lloyd George refused: "The Polish insurrection is a crime against the Versailles Treaty, which gave Poland it Freedom. Poland is the last land, that can complaint about this treaty, since it was incapable of securing its own freedom out of its own strength"

Now some quotes:

"The Battle between Poles and Germans is inevitable. We must systematically prepare ourselves for this War. Our Ideal is a Poland in the West with the Oder and Neisse as Border. The World will tremble from the German-polish War. We have to spread the spirit of merciless Revenge and Cruelty into the rows of our soldiers."
Polish Newspaper "The League for Superpower" 3rd October 1930


The greatest political and economical absurdety which can be found in recent history, is the Polish Corridor.. One thing is certain in America and Europe, the entire World, that a revision of this situation is necessary and that only a hateful Spirit coming from France prevents this ..... And so the consequences of Occupation, Cruelty and total arbitrariness will not only ruin German economy, but destroy the self-esteem and any hope of their people in a brighter future. They will be driven either to Militarism or to Revolution, i. e. to two extremes of despair which will be the ruin of Europe, and will let Germany fall into a dark abyss, this Germany, which is such a wondeful masterpiece and home of many geniuses and great Spirits." 1924
Italian Ministerpresident Francesco Nitti in "The Downfall of Europe"


I am convinced, that the irrational enlargement of Poland not only topples the verdict of History, but is making a cardinal political Mistake, which will one day fall back on us. I think the main mistakes of the Treaty are the long endurance of the Rhineland occupation and the enlargement of Poland, which we didnt even consider during the War. These 2 mistakes are the main dangers for the future peace in Europe, and I strongly recomend, that we do everything in our power to eliminate them, before it is to late.
South African PM General Smuts in a letter to Lloyd George 1919



The division of Germany in two different sized halves, just for the mere purpouse to give Poland a coastline and exit to the sea, is the worst act of robbery, which a Peace Conferance ever committed. The Existance of the Corridor is a Provocation of Germany and a Danger for Poland."
Lord Rothermere in Daily Mail, November 1930


I can hardly imagine a more dangerous source for a future War, than surrounding the Germans - which have proven to be one of the strongest and mightiest Races in the World - with a ring of small states, which each encloses a large number of Germans who are being denied the right to reunify with their Homeland. The Suggestion of the Polish Commission, to place 2.5 Million Germans under the control of a Nation which has proven in its History, that it is incapable to govern itself, must lead in my Opinion sooner or later to a new War in Eastern Europe."
David Lloyd George, Memorandum to the Versailles Conference 26th March 1919


I don´t say that the polish crimes justify a war, but they aren´t as innocent as they ever say.

Whats with russia?
Russia also invaded Poland in 1939, but nobody call Russia "the evilst of the evil" like Germany. On 8th May they all (Schröder, Chirac, Bush etc) came to Moscow to see the parade of the "courages" Red Army, that invade Poland by the way, that massacred 14.552 polish officers in 1939-40, that raped through Germany and slaughterd nearly 3 Million german civilian. I don´t think Russia/Red Army deserved the title of a "Liberator".
Germany and Russia have to share the responsibilty for WW2.


Regards,
Che.

 

i agree that russia does get off lightly with regards to who was responsible for ww2, often their aggression and opportunism in 1939-41 are forgotten because of what happened after.

 

good read thx

 

I feel it was the Allied leaders of WWI that imposed such strict and imposing terms on Germany during the treaty of Versailles. It was this that helped lead Germany into a depression, which in turn caused harsh feelings toward the Allied countries of WWI. When the people are disadent, they will listen to anything, even if it is some Austrian (Hitler) rambling on about his final solution and lebensraum.

Of course the Allies of WWI had no knowledge of the consequenses of the treaty, but in the long run it was that which started WWII.

 

The nazi party started WW2 , the Nazi party wouldn't have gotten power if it wasn't for Hitler. Hitler and Himmler were the ones who started aunchless , so yeah I would say it was hitler.

 

what does that mean? i assume you mean anschluss between germany and austria, not sure you can start an anschluss? dont see how himmler was party to getting it started either :-?

 

Anyone who wants to read an outstanding book about the period 1939-1941 should try "The Last European War" by John Lukacs (Anchor/Doubleday, 1976). Dr. Lukacs is an Hungarian emigre who fled Hungary just after the Sovs rolled in. The book examines the period from various perspectives and is a most rewarding read.

 

you know how germany wanted it's previous land back ? , and to take other european land for the german people , that's aunchless , he invaded Poland for aunchless and the allies got involved so... Does that make more sense ?

 

No you've got completely the wrong word.

To take land from your neighbour (Either from a neighbouring country, or even from your nextdoor neighbour) is Annexation, or you might say Hitler Annexed Poland. The Anschluss was a peaceful joining (Backed by force if necessary of course) of two Germanic nations under German leadership with the support of the people. If that force had to be used then that too would have become an annexation.

 

Yeah , thanks I used the wrong word.

 

Of Poland and the Slavic people. Nothing more.

Where is it written? Do you want an EXACT translation of the words under the map?

The camp in Szczypiorno was built by the Germans during the I WW and was used to hold the soldiers of Legiony Polskie (troops formed only of Poles in Austria and France, they were the "beginning" of the Polish army).

BTW: in Szczypiorno German guards taught the Polish prisoners the rules of handball. Due to that handball has two names in my country: pilka reczna (which literally means handball) and szczypiorniak - from the place of its Polish origin.

And Germany sent about 200 thousand people to the plebiscite region for them to vote. And they voted although they shouldn't have. Moreover Poland was then involved in the war agiant bolshevik Russia. We asked Britain and France for help. They answered that they'd help us if we gave a big part of Silesia to the Czech. And so it happened - this meant leaving about 120 thousand Poles on the Czech side of the border. In exchange Czechoslovakia agreed not to help the Russians in their war against Poland and to let the western transports with armement through their country to Poland.

I've never heard of it before.

Try speaking about it with someone living east of the Odra. In Poland, Hungary, former Czechoslovakia the Soviets are practically equally evil as the Germans. For some maybe even more.

 

Yep it would be nice

Regards,
Che.