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Rhein wiesen lager

Discussion in 'Post War 1945-1955' started by aquist, Aug 6, 2010.

  1. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Rhineman,
    I have no idea whether or not you can speak German (I don't), but the definitive story of German PoWs in WW2 are the Maschke Commission volumes published postwar-

    "The Complete Works of the Scientific Commission for German prisoners of war history

    I / 1 The German prisoners of war in Yugoslavia, 1941 - 1949
    I / 2 The German prisoners of war in Yugoslavia, 1949 - 1953
    II The German POWs in the Soviet Union - the storage company
    III The German POWs in the Soviet Union - the hunger factor
    IV The German POWs in the Soviet Union - the labor
    V/1-3 German prison camps and prisons in the Soviet Union
    VI The German POWs in the Soviet Union - from the cultural life
    VII The German war prisoners in Soviet hands - a balance sheet
    VIII The German POWs in the Soviet Union - Antifa .)
    IX The German prisoners of war in Poland under CSR .)
    X / 1 The German POWs in American hands - USA
    X / 2 The German POWs in American hands - Europe
    XI / 1 The German war prisoners in British hands .)
    XI / 2 The German war prisoners in the UK - Re-education
    XII The German war prisoners in the custody of Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg
    XIII The German war prisoners in French hands
    XIV Spirit and culture of German prisoners of war in the West
    XV (Final volume: sources, methods, results) .)
    1.Beiheft Diary from Soviet captivity, 1945-1949
    2.Beiheft Records of prisoners of war in the West As of 1972: .) Studies not yet completed

    In the above publications of the Scientific Commission under Professor Dr. Erich mesh, Head of the Scientific Commission for German prisoners of war history, it is a parent. This very comprehensive books describe the situation of the German war prisoners in the custody of individual countries. Shall be made generally in various chapters on:
    • the acquisition of prisoners of war
    • the structure and organization of the war task being
    • the living conditions of prisoners of war with
      • Lodging
      • Board
      • Clothing
      • Postal service
      • Health Care
      • Employment of prisoners of war in their spare time
      • Care of prisoners of war by aid agencies
      • Pastoral care in the camps
      • Warehouse Management
      • Relationship between prisoners and guards
      • Flight cases and their treatment
      • Co-existence of POWs in the camps
    • labor input
      • the work in the coal mines
      • Employment in Industry and Handicrafts
      • work in agriculture and forestry
    • the release of prisoners of war
    • the transformation of prisoners of war in "free labor"
    • mine clearance
    and much more
    "
    Kriegsgefangenenlager des 2. Weltkrieges – GenWiki

    The only one I have is the one on Re-education of PoWs in Britain, and that's only because the author translated it into English and then republished it.
    Compare what those say with Bacque, and let me know what level of agreement you find, if any.
     
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  2. Totenkopf

    Totenkopf אוּרִיאֵל

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    It's just something to consider, but if it is revealed that you are a member of Stormfront, and the users you are trying to have a discussion with know what Stormfront is about, your credibility is beaten to a pulp with an almighty big stick almost instantly. Especially if it pertains to the popular Stormfront topics such as: "The poor SS victims" "Hitler was actually a pretty cool guy" and my favorite "The holocaust was American propaganda".

    Numerous users of this site have browsed Stormfront including myself and have seen what the users of said site think of WW2, so you must understand that people are going to be critical if your case isn't solid, the "facts being out there" is not good enough.
     
  3. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    Thanks for the advice and warning about Stormfront. I appreciate it, and all I can do is to deny completely any association with them. I understand that it may be of concern to the forum but I have no connection- in fact I avoid their website and wouldn't touch it with the proverbial bargepole. Neo Nazis and their sort disgust me. If I appear to be apologising for them I'm not- I'm trying to show that there was a wrong on the Allied side in how prisoners were treated- but never excusing the SS or the Nazis. The holocaust happened, Hitler and the Nazis were scum, and there is absolutely no denying it. My German wife's family were anti Nazis and suffered for it, were threatened with a concentration camp and were visited by the Gestapo. I don't know how else I can deny any link to either Stormfront or their like.
     
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  4. sniper1946

    sniper1946 Expert

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    no ones going to knock you for having a point of view? but keep on going on about it in this way does'nt work..if you have evidence to post? fine! just don't get wrapped up in hearsay, he said! she said!..we'd all love to see what you! base your true opinions on...
     
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  5. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    Your point is taken. Thanks. I'll try and rephrase my arguments another way. I'm not here to wind anyone up.
     
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  6. sniper1946

    sniper1946 Expert

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    appreciate your understanding...
     
  7. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    Let me try again and redefine what I was trying to prove. To say there was an official policy in disposing of the SS would be wrong but I believe that there was an unofficial policy or culture, amongst the US military, in late 1944-45 of doing just that. The onus is on me to prove that and after 60 years that's going to be an uphill struggle. I'm convinced it happened but that is quite rightly not enough for you. I respect all those (Historian, LRusso216, Sniper1946, Spartanroller and Totenkopf...) who have objected to my arguments and I understand you want proof. What will it take to convince? What is evidence?
     
  8. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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    show us what you have and we'll tell you if we accept it.
     
  9. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    The culture and acceptance that the execution of the SS was unofficially sanctioned can be taken in three parts- those executed on the field of battle, those executed later in prison camps, and those SS who were executed when Concentration camps were liberated.


    a)There are some fairly well documented accounts of the SS being executed in connection with the liberation of Dachau and I'm not in anyway suggesting that they didn't deserve it only that it was outside of what we can call a justice of the law.


    http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachauscrapbook/DachauLiberation/soldiersKilled.html


    b) On the battlefront there are various accounts of the SS being given short thrift and especially after Malmedy.


    '...in the wake of the Malmedy incident at Chegnogne that on New Year's Day 1945 some 60 German POWs were shot in cold blood by their American guards. The guilty went unpunished. It was felt that the basis for their action was orders that no prisoners were to be taken...One American unit issued orders that, "No SS troops or paratroopers will be taken prisoners but will be shot on sight." Thus Fragmentary Order 27. issued by Headquarters, 328th Infantry.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenogne_massacre#cite_note-Sorge_1986-2


    We also have Spartanroller's account which suggests the same happening. Prisoners were not being taken. Try also this account from the German side of the coin (click on Remagen for Heinz Heidt's account) in which he thought he was going to be shot for being a member of the SS.


    http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.rheinwiesenlager.de/Rheinwiesen.htm&ei=rjVHTI6tFKj00gSdodTDBA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Drheinwiesenlager%2B1945%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1R2ADRA_enGB389%26prmd%3Dv


    There is also an extensive list of American killings of Prisoners, from another forum, quoted from the internationally recognised human rights lawyer and historian Alfred de Zayas. A large number of these are disproportionately SS and most of the killings were committed after Malmedy. Most of these accounts will have come from the Wust Files in Freiberg, a proven source of surprisingly independent investigation into Allied crimes against German Soldiers.

    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=46211


    David Stafford in his excellent book, 'Endgame,' quotes a well known war correspondent who had heard from a veteran that the order had been given that the SS were not to be taken prisoner but were to be shot on sight, and that those of the SS who were taken prisoner were often reported later as shot whilst escaping. Endgame. Paperback. Page 125.

    1. c) Finally the evidence for executions in the POW camps comes from this site itself. Aquist, who started this thread, says that he has spoken to those who were first hand witnesses to the SS being dealt with, this also confirms the story on my family's side, independently that the SS were given short thrift. ​

    Further evidence of a less than sympathetic view of what justice should have been was described in a report: 'American Atrocities in Germany,' By JUDGE EDWARD L. VAN RODEN, which details what happened to those who were accused of the Malmedy Massacre.


    http://www.foonews.info/de-soc-politik-misc/11354675-how-did-some-nazis-confessed-their-crimes.html


    There's more evidence to back up what I'm trying to say but I'd like to wait and get opinions from the forum on what I've given so far.
     
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  10. Totenkopf

    Totenkopf אוּרִיאֵל

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    It is of no surprise that a "culture of prejudice" existed in independent actions against SS soldiers, "Frontier Justice" is a well know but (in a paradox sense) scarcely documented topic.

    I see that the many independent prisoner shootings committed by US soldiers and the allies abroad weren't so much "lining against a wall" but rather shooting a man who stuck his hands up at the last second. This is somewhat understandable take on it, as via the independent actions of the SS that were well known among the fighting man, one could easily say "he would have done the same to me" and not fretted on it any further.

    Whether camps existed that starved and shot these soldiers, I don't agree or deny it as look at the SS, these men might have lived a happy normal life in peacetime, but given a certain degree of power and in a position to enforce it, the "phsyco" gene that lay dormant in some people makes it self known in others, some people have the misfortune of being such a way.
     
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  11. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    It's a pity you didn't read the third post's comment about most allegations of war crimes subsequently being proven false.


    That's second-hand hearsay, and so is the next one-


    And then he said-
    "Our final report on these trials has been turned over to Secretary of the Army Royall. In spite of the many instances like those I have described, we found no general conspiracy to obtain evidence improperly"
    Allied Atrocities. United States: The Van Roden Report
    What you appear to be basing your case on is hearsay evidence and supposition. Which PoW camps were SS men allegedly executed in, since I can state for a fact it never happened in any camp in Britain?
     
  12. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    The third post's allegations that the evidence of De Zayas is flawed does not have a link or any backed up reference to who has proved these allegations false. De Zayas is one of the sharpest tools in the box, an historian and a lawyer with a specialist knowledge of war crimes in 1945 particularly. His claims and work are always very well researched and he is internationally recognised for his integrity. He is no fool to be found making wild accusations.

    Alfred-Maurice de Zayas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As for abuse of German prisoners in British POW Camps- let me make it very clear that time and time again German POWs described their treatment as nothing less than according to the rules and that they were always treated with due respect. The worst I've heard of the British, by German POWs, is that the British would never let anything upset their routine and obsession with tea. I have some accounts in which German POWs claim that the good treatment they received in captivity saved their lives.
     
  13. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    But you yourself quite freely throw unsubstantiated claims around.

    I'm glad you agree on British camps, since I've spent quite a few years researching them and have never come across claims of cruelty.
    In fact, the biggest breakout from a British camp (97 Italians from Doonfoot Camp in Scotland, 18/12/44) was mainly caused by them not being allowed to listen to a certain radio broadcast!
     
  14. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    At last something we're in agreement with. Is that a first? As for the ,'unsubstantiated claims,' Sniper and Spartanroller have already put me right on that one and if I say something I'll try and back it up with evidence.
     
  15. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    Can we agree that there was widespread abuse of prisoners after Malmedy, and that a culture existed amongst GIs where prisoners were shot out of hand? Is the evidence that Alfred de Zayas is providing enough proof of this? If it is challenged by whom and on what grounds?

    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=46211
     
  16. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    Just to add- I had the pleasure of meeting a former German POW, some years ago, who'd been in a British camp. When I was introduced as being Scottish he was delighted because the guards of the camp he'd been in were from Scotland. He had nothing but praise for the way he'd been treated and even, strangely, had very happy memories of his time in captivity. Likewise another prisoner I met had a great deal of high regard for the British and gave an example of their turning a blind eye to minor infringements of the law as he tried to use a fishing rod, through an open window of an army kitchen, to steal some food.
     
  17. sniper1946

    sniper1946 Expert

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    Rhineman, good to see you can debate an argument/point on a coherent level..and responses/replies too..
     
  18. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Probably- but that's still not the same as it being official policy.
    As regards Scots and PoWs, there was always less tensions between PoWs and the locals in Scotland even during the war, despite the fact the most die-hard Nazis were sent to camps in Scotland.
     
  19. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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    They probably all felt sorry for the Germans due to the weather and midges :)
     
  20. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    The folks in Wick did; every prisoner who escaped from Watten #165 was defeated by the weather!
     

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