Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Russia Attacks Georgia

Discussion in 'Military History' started by texson66, Aug 8, 2008.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mikebatzel

    mikebatzel Dreadnaught

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,185
    Likes Received:
    406
    May I ask from where are these Mercenaries from, and why they are fighting. I've heard nothing other than Georgia, Russia, and two breakaway Provence's. Nothing of armed foreign nationals fighting Russian troops for high profit. Unless our cultural differences cause me to read this incorrectly.


    When you say attacked refugees, do you mean that unarmed fleeing civilians where directly assaulted after it was known that they where unarmed and non-combatants? Could you provide a link to a story about it? You see here in the US our reporters are having a difficult time getting to the refugees to interview them and get there side of the story because Russian Authorities have been arresting them, according to MSNBC.
     
    Slipdigit likes this.
  2. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    10,480
    Likes Received:
    426
    Like I have said. Who are we to believe?

    Georgia says Russia bombed after order to halt war
    By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA and MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI, Associated Press Writers

    2 minutes ago


    TBILISI, Georgia - Russia ordered a halt to the war in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks that sent Georgia's army into headlong retreat and left towns, military bases and homes in the U.S. ally smoldering. Georgia insisted that Russian forces were still bombing and shelling.
    Despite the televised order by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, Russia launched an offensive Tuesday in the Kodori Gorge, the only part of the breakaway region of Abkhazia still under Georgian control, sending in tanks, armored personnel carriers and artillery.
    And hours before the order, Russian jets bombed the crossroads city of Gori, near the separatist region of South Ossetia. Gori's post office and university were burning Tuesday, but the city was all but deserted after most remaining residents and Georgian soldiers fled Monday ahead of a feared Russian onslaught.
    In Moscow, Medvedev said Georgia had been punished enough for its attack on South Ossetia. Georgia launched an offensive late Thursday to regain control over the separatist province, which has close ties to Russia.
    "The aggressor has been punished and suffered very significant losses. Its military has been disorganized," Medvedev said.
    Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, speaking before a crowd of thousands at a Tbilisi square, said the invasion was not because Russia wanted control of the breakaway regions.
    "They just don't want freedom and that's why they want to stamp on Georgia and destroy it," he said, as red and white Georgian fluttered.
    Tens of thousands of terrified residents have fled the fighting — South Ossetians north to Russia, and Georgians west toward the capital of Tbilisi and the country's Black Sea coast.
    Both sides have traded accusations of genocide.
    Russia has accused Georgia of killing more than 2,000 people, mostly civilians, in the separatist province of South Ossetia. The claim couldn't be independently confirmed, but witnesses who fled the area over the weekend said hundreds had died.
    Many Georgians also have been killed in the fighting and on Tuesday, the Georgian security council said it filed a lawsuit in the International Court of Justice for alleged ethnic cleansing. The overall death toll was expected to rise because large areas of Georgia were still too dangerous for journalists to enter and see the true scope of the damage.
    "It feels like an annexed country," said Lasha Margiana, the local administrator in one of the villages in the Kodori Gorge, where fleeing Georgians said the entire population had abandoned their homes.
    Medvedev assailed the West for supporting Georgia in the conflict: "International law doesn't envision double standards."
    In Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian provincial capital now under Russian control, the body of a Georgian soldier lay in the street along with debris. A poster hanging nearby showed Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and the slogan "Say yes to peace and stability" as South Ossetian separatist fighters launched rockets at a Georgian plane soaring overhead. Broken glass and other debris littered the ground.
    "If there are any emerging hotbeds of resistance or any aggressive actions, you should take steps to destroy them," Medvedev ordered his defense minister at a televised Kremlin meeting.
    Russia's foreign minister called for Saakashvili to resign. Medvedev said Georgia must pull its troops from the two Russian-backed breakaway provinces and allow them to decide whether they want to remain part of Russia.
    "Ossetians and Abkhaz must respond to that question taking their history into account, including what happened in the past few days," Medvedev said grimly.

    Thousands of Georgians poured out their support for their president at a rally in Tbilisi, crowding a main square and nearby streets as far as the eye could see and holding aloft fluttering red-and-white Georgian flags.
    Georgia, which is pushing for NATO membership, borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union. South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since fighting to split from Georgia in the early 1990s.
    Both separatist provinces are backed by Russia, which appears open to absorbing them.
    Medvedev said Tuesday that Russian peacekeepers will stay in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia; Saakashvili said his government will officially designate Russian peacekeepers in those breakaway provinces as occupying forces.
    The Russian onslaught angered the West and drew tough words from President Bush, but some Georgians are disappointed that the U.S. did not intervene to protect its tiny ally.
    "I'd like to think the words really do matter," U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Matthew Bryza said Tuesday in Tbilisi.
    Bryza declined to say if the U.S. would provide military support in the event that Russia expands its operations: "I hope we'll never come to the question of what we do if Russia refuses to observe international law."
    Georgia sits on a strategic oil pipeline carrying Caspian crude to Western markets bypassing Russia, has long been a source of contention between the West and a resurgent Russia, the dominant energy supplier to Europe. The British oil company BP shut down one of three Georgian pipelines as a precaution, although the company said it had no evidence the pipelines had suffered damage.
    In villages around the South Ossetian provincial capital, separatist fighters reportedly were setting fire to Georgian houses and searching for hidden Georgian fighters.
    An AP photographer in the village of Ruisi near South Ossetia saw fresh damage from a Russian air raid that locals said came just 30 minutes before Medvedev's televised statement.
    Residents said three villagers were killed and another five wounded when a Russian warplane raided the village. One slain victim, 77-year old Amiran Vardzelashvili, was struck by a fragment in the heart while was working in a field.
    The Georgian government said another nearby village, Sakorinto, also was bombed after Medvedev announcing a halt to fighting, as was an ambulance in the Black Sea province of Adzharia.
    The U.N. and NATO called meetings Tuesday to deal with the conflict, while Poland's president and the leaders of four former Soviet republics flew to Georgia for a meeting of solidarity with Saakashvili.
    "The Russian state has once again shown its face, its true face," said Poland's Lech Kaczynski, who was being joined by counterparts from Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine and Latvia.
    But he said it was "good news" that Medvedev ordered a halt to military action.
    At the White House on Monday, Bush had demanded that Russia end a "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence in Georgia, agree to an immediate cease-fire and accept international mediation. "Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century," Bush said in a televised statement.

    Georgia says Russia bombed after order to halt war - Yahoo! News
     
  3. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    10,480
    Likes Received:
    426
    At UN: Confirmation of Russia's Georgia advance
    By JOHN HEILPRIN, Associated Press Writer Mon Aug 11, 11:27 PM ET


    UNITED NATIONS - Georgia brought another last-ditch appeal Monday to the United Nations Security Council to stop Russia's advancing army, which U.N. officials confirmed has driven beyond Georgia's breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
    [​IMG]
    The officials, B. Lynn Pascoe and Edmond Mulet, advised the council behind closed doors that non-peacekeeping Russian airborne troops were entering U.S.-allied Georgia from Abkhazia, and were not meeting any resistance while taking control of Georgia's Senaki army base, council diplomats said on condition of anonymity because it was a closed session.
    "A full military invasion of Georgia is going on," Georgian Ambassador Irakli Alasania told reporters after the end of the two-hour council meeting that it had requested. "Now I think Security Council has to act."
    It was the fifth such emergency session since Thursday. In that time Russia's ferocious retaliation against Georgia's initial move to control separatist South Ossetia has quickly broadened to nearly all-out war.
    Since Georgia isn't a council member, it can can only attend a formal meeting such as the one held privately Monday.
    Council diplomats said the session was marked by heated exchanges between Alasania and Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin, who was repeatedly asked whether it was Russia's intention to topple Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili's fledgling democratic government in the Georgian capital Tbilisi.
    "We in Russia, we cannot see how we can do business with him," Churkin told reporters afterward. "We make no secret of that."
    France also circulated a draft resolution Monday that would have the council call for "the immediate and unconditional cessation of hostilities, and the complete withdrawal of Russian and Georgian forces to their positions prior to August 7."
    The 15-nation council is expected to take up the draft proposal Tuesday.
    The proposed text also calls for immediate negotiations and expresses the council's intention "to take further action, as appropriate, to help bring about and implement a peaceful and durable solution to the crisis."
    Finally, the text would have the council express dismay that "the hostilities are occurring during the Olympic Truce" that the U.N. General Assembly had urged all nations to observe during the current Olympic Games in Beijing.
    The U.S. also has been pushing to include language condemning Russia's actions. Any such proposal would be largely symbolic since Russia is one of five council members with the power to veto it. The others are the U.S., Britain, China and France.
    Western diplomats, however, said the U.N.'s observations seemed to confirm their suspicions about Russia's motives.
    "We have not received a clear answer today to that question," U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad told reporters. "Why start a second front from Abkhazia? Why attack the rest of Georgia? And why attack the infrastructure of Georgia? Why threaten to attack the civilian airport of Tbilisi?"
    His comments echoed those of Pesident Bush who demanded Monday that Russia end an escalation in the fighting.

    At UN: Confirmation of Russia's Georgia advance - Yahoo! News
     
  4. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Messages:
    25,883
    Likes Received:
    856
    Thanks to the clintons, I doubt we have enough military personnel to go around and to be able to send some the Georgians way. Whether that's a good or bad thing, I don't know anymore?
     
  5. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Messages:
    25,883
    Likes Received:
    856
    Bro, you said a mouth full. I don't think anyone could have said it better. Pootin is one not to be trusted. Im glad someone slse here sees this turd for what it really is.
     
  6. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Messages:
    25,883
    Likes Received:
    856
    Vet, we KNOW that Russians are not stupid people. Many great folks have made great contributions to mankind-who came from Russia. One of my favorites of course, is the famed writer: Leo Tolstoy-for his book: "War and Peace." More examples of my favorites who came from Russia or the Soviet Union-include but are not limited to: General Chuikov, Gen Rokkosovsky, Gen Budenny, and famed sniper Zaitsev. However, it's got to be remembered that Westerners think differently than do Easterners-so our opinions might be totally different than yours are. In having said that, then you sould be able to understand why some of us think the way we do about certain Russian leaders-such as Uncle Vlad.

    Uncle Vlad has a certain quality about him that makes me not want to trust him-which is what I said so in several postings in several threads that had something to do with him. I feel about pootin, as how many people feel about Pres Bush.

    I have a few good friends who are Russians and who live there. One lives in St. Petersburg, another in Moscow, and one who lives somewhere near Balaklava. I wish they were members here because they would give more of a "balance" on opinions on these subjects.

    That said, I HOPE you all do not have another war on your hands-though it looks like that you do. I forget who said this but, I fully agree with it: "Make War No More."

    Take care and best regards-Carl.
     
  7. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Messages:
    25,883
    Likes Received:
    856
    Hi J.C. all that you said above, is my exact sentiments. Somehow, I feel that neither side is telling us the full story.
     
  8. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    10,480
    Likes Received:
    426
    Exactly and in regards to Vet's blanket statement about the "Americans" the same could be said of the Russians. I for one an not one of them.
     
  9. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Messages:
    25,883
    Likes Received:
    856
    Same here J.C. Saying that we hate Russians is nuts. I don't remember who said it but they said somehting like: "we don't hate the Russians-just their leadership" to which I agree with. Vets statement is akin to me saying I hate anyone who is American of Mexican descent. Totally wrong, i've had a few Ami/Mex girlfriends in my time, as well as many great friends and neighbors. One of my best friends is now a Doctor. This guy and I, every Saturday afternoon for quite awhile, used to watch COMBAT when it was played on TV from 1PM to 2 PM. Then when it was ovver, we'd grab our Dads WWII stuff (Helmet, cartridge belt etc) and go outside to kill hundreds of imaginary German Soldiers.

    Anyway, to further help in keeping this thread civil, I now bow out of it.
     
  10. german mauser k98k man

    german mauser k98k man Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2008
    Messages:
    149
    Likes Received:
    6
    what? you dont seem to understand, the USA should let the russians have Georgia because nobody wants WW3, hell let them have afganistan for that matter, mother Russia should do what it wants NATO has no buissness in Eastern Eroupe because when NATO puts their nose in there bad things happen!
     
  11. tikilal

    tikilal Ace

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    66
    Well Russia got what they wanted. Now everyone in the world knows the the US and every other peace loving people will put up with crap like this.
     
  12. qrisso

    qrisso recruit

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hello everyone ! Well 1st timer here :) Found this forum via a Google search. Anyway, I come from Latvia (direct neighbor of Russia), and Latvia is located at the Baltic sea, together with Estonia and Lithuania, in Eastern Europe.

    Anyway, people have been discussing here, and someone called that this discussion needs some "balance", I'll try to balance it out.

    First of all. Russia has been terrorizing it's small neighbor countries since the Soviet Union felt apart. Russia still wants to control all these countries, thank god Baltic Sates are now in NATO and EU. Anyway, all I want to say is that Putin and Russia are monsters ! Tell me, please, if Russia is so innocent in this conflict, how the hell they could send in more than 10.000 soldiers, tanks, armored vehicles, etc.. in a such short period? it's not possible to do that without planning for an attack. Russia was ready for it, and knowing Russia, they provoked Georgia to do it. Ukrainian, Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonian, Polish politicians already said that Russia provoked Georgia to do it, because nobody knows better Russia than these countries.

    All ex - soviet union countries have a very large percentage of Russian citizens. What does this mean ? It means that, if in any country that has a big number of Russians living in it, and if these Russians in some ex - soviet union country, will tell it's "mother" that they're not ok, for example, in Latvia. They have full - rights to attack Latvia, because Russia's people are crying for help. This is how it looks like now. Russia already is taking all small neighbor countries "by b*lls" economically and politically, thank god not yet with military.

    News say that Russians are "peace keepers", oh my god, show me a period in history when Russia was doing peace keeping ? Russians don't know how to make a peace, Russia doesn't attack, or it occupies totally. And for crying out loud, if Russia is only "defending" their people according to them, why the hell do hey attack non military objects ? Why the hell do they attack other cities that are not related with the S. Ossetia's conflict ?

    It's all clear that Russia is interested to throw back Georgia in the middle ages.

    Btw, I'll give you two interesting facts. Georgia has a pipeline that is going from Asia to Western Europe, without touching Russia. And Russia has been trying to get this pipeline in a political way. But it's very vital for Georgia's economy, so Georgia refused to give it to Russia.

    And the second is that Georgia wanted to join NATO, Russia few months ago said, that it doesn't support Georgia, and Russia doesn't want that Georgia joins NATO, which means that Russia will loose the potential control which they may have over Georgia, same as like with Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia.

    I want to tell that S. Ossetia's conflict was just a provoked "cause" for the Russia to invade Georgia and totally destroy it's economical and political growth and stance.

    P.S. Russia stated, that if Georgia will move it's forces back, then Russia will stop the invason. Georgia did STOP military activities, but Russia made an "whoops" by throwing couple of bombs in the center of a city (forgot the name of it) and killing dozens of civilians and killing a dutch reporter.

    This only shows how Russia is doing "peace keeping" and "defending" it's people by totally Invading another country and destroying it.

    You can't believe nor trust a monster like that. Russia already threatened Latvia, if Latvia will give some kind of Support to Georgia, then the next possible target could be Latvia. Again, probably the Russian people in Latvia will make a riot for a purpose, because Russia has it's "men" here, and they will be crying that Latvia is treating the Russian citizens bad here, and Russia will have a reason to attack, because, hey, they don't want to destroy the small country, they only want to defend it's people by invading more than 10.000 soldiers in a small country. It's called "peace keeping" by Russia.

    So, please, believe me, knowing Putin and Russia, it's all clear, why Russia is doing it, and who is the guilty one. As I stated above, nobody knows Russia better than the ex - soviet countries.

    Regards,

    Chris.
     
    JCFalkenbergIII likes this.
  13. von Rundstedt

    von Rundstedt Dishonorably Discharged

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2007
    Messages:
    678
    Likes Received:
    29
    To Grisso

    I want to congratulte you for giving us here a balanced veiw, some on this site are hero whorshipers of Mother Russia and idolise Vladimir Putin, for some he can do no wrong.

    I have put my viewpoint on this site and have been accused of hating Russians, yeah it is the same old situation, when others begin to lose the argument they bring out the race hate card.

    As you correctly state this attack by Russia has been meticuliously planned by the Russian Armed forces, the speed of co-ordination of the deployment of the Navy, Army and Air Force shows this, and the timing of it also is apt, during the Olympics no less, the Russians thought that the distraction of the Olympics would have the effect of covering their invasion of Georgia.

    As i have previously stated that Vladimir Putin the former head of the Soviet KGB has personally made it his mission to re-incorporate the breakaway republics back to the Soviet fold, and the obvious method is always the same, the trigger is that he wants to protect Russian citizens.

    Well here is a solution to the problem, Russia pays to have all these Russian citizens that are trapped in these neighbouring countries repatriated back to Russian and let his neighbours live in peace.

    Also just to finnish off remember the incident in Tallin Estonia when the Estonian Government removed a War Memorial of the Soviet Red Army, the Russians actually considered invading Estonia over it, Russian citizens in Estonia staged riots over the incident, they found it an afront to them and the Soviet Soldiers, but Estonia saw it another way it the war memorial reminded those Estonians of the horors of Soviet Occupation, i liken it to have a German war memorial with all the bells and whistles of Nazi Party regalia in down town Warsaw.

    The Estonian Government had the right to remove it and put it somewhere else that was not so obvious, but Russia said they the Estonian Government had not right to do this, and drew up santions to slap on Estonia, including the possibility of Military action.

    As i have said all these neighbours of Russia for their own sakes and take back control of their independence begin mass deportations of Russians back to Russia, but can you imagine this senario Russian passport holders in South Ossetia are being deported back to Russia but Russia wont have them, i would love to see this, Uncle Vlad refusing Russians returning to Russia.

    Well done Grisso.

    I have a very good friend here in Aussie and she is of Latvian stock, boy you breed em good over there, send more please, the more Latvians the better. Cheers.

    v.R
     
  14. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    10,480
    Likes Received:
    426
    Thanks for your take and info on the subject qrisso/Chris :).
     
  15. diddyriddick

    diddyriddick Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2008
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    12
    Given their recent history there, my guess is that they don't want it. But maybe thats just me.
     
  16. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,984
    Likes Received:
    2,385
    I'm glad some of you provided some balanced information here.

    Just a few details here :

    -Georgia has been granted independence after the collapse of USSR
    -This independence has been recognized by, all including Russia, so Georgia is not a Russian colony.
    -No country in the world (except Russia ) has recognized south ossetia independent
    -No country in the world (except Russia ) has recognized Abkhazia independent.
    -Georgia has never crossed her own borders and her offensive was only meant to recuperate her OWN territorities that are occupied by Mercernaries armed by the Russians
    -Russia has invaded South ossetia as a result , it has also used this pretext to invade Abkhazia and even crossed the borders she recognized herself as international.
    -Russia denies having crossed any borders , depsite evidence of bombings and the fact that she is occupying this country.
    -Russia started ethnic cleansing in the territorities she has occupied and will not leave until talks are started. (reminds me of 1940....)
    -Georgia is an ally , they have sent troops to the Middle East.
    -Georgia is a Christian country , it is a Democracy and her territoritial integrity is internationality recognized.
    -Georgia has been accused of doing some ehtnic cleansing but from where, considering she has been kicked out from her own provinces where she could have done it?
    -Russia has sank three Georgian ships, whereas South Ossetia has no sea shore....

    So on what grounds does Russia have the right to INVADE and OCCUPY this country, Please don't tell me she wants to protect her own population against the Georgians. This is what Hitler told at Munich when he annexed the Sudeten..........

    The fact is that Russia has spat on international laws and because we need Russia in case of trouble with Iran. Western democracies let Georgia down. If Georgia wants to regain control on her own territory IT IS HER RIGHT and she needs our support. Once again a big country is swallowing a small one and we say nothing.... Don't get me wrong I like Russia, but she has nothing to do in an independent country . Russia is a major partner , but she is not above international laws.
    We are in 2008, not in 1940: Who's next otherwise , Latvia , Estonia ? they have all Russian populations too.
     
  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,462
    Likes Received:
    2,200
  18. Soviet man

    Soviet man Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2008
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    3
    Well guys. It seems that you hate russians and support Georgia. Ok. I will say you information. USA and Georgia before war there training together in Georgia under american commander! Georgia bought many vehicles from another coutnries! I have a friend from Ossetia and I trust him! He said that georgians have mercenaries (black mans, turks and others). He said that Georgia attacked russian's troops first! Russians go there because 90% OF OSSETIANS ARE OUR CITIZENS and cause we want to end war between them! My friend said that russians don't attacked georgians cities! He's ossetian, by the way.
    We have captured georgians terrorists in Russia! They want to make terrorist's acts in my country! WE don't want war! Georgia want it. And guys, if you don't want to listen true from me cause Im russian, listen it from Ossetians. They will said you true. All what said on your TV is lie! Sorry, but it is true.
     
  19. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,462
    Likes Received:
    2,200
    Soviet man,

    if we criticize Bush ( like we have done many times ) I bet it´s ok with you. Why can´t we criticize Medvedev/Putin? I don´t think it makes us Russia haters like you say. But I guess you see things black/white?
     
  20. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,462
    Likes Received:
    2,200
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page