Surcouf, what really happened.

Thanks for your second hand testimony. I would have liked it better without the biased details and without the mistake.
Firstly this was a Free French Crew, not a Vichy one. Secondly there is no need to hit on the discipline of these guys, especially as a matter of respect to the fallen . They were enthousiastic men coming from all horizons and not all were sailors. They were on an outdated sub and did their best to contribute to fight the Nazis and they at least could see the difference between an U-Boot with an ally.

 

Hi,

My name is Bob and I am a new member to this Forum. I came upon this forum by somewhat of an accident, and I am glad I did.

I am the current custodian of the Tricolor from the SURCOUF. It is shown in the photo section of James Rusbridger's book "Who Sank Surcouf"

The flag was given to my father by a SURCOUF crewman that had befriended my father while she was under repair at Portsmouth Naval Shipyard, Kittery, ME.

As my father had a car, on their off duty time my father showed him around the Portsmouth/Kittery area and as my father put it "we occasionally had a few beers together".

Shortly before SURCOUF left, his friend, the French crewman, gave my father a packet and said, and I quote my father, "Bob, here is a souvenir - we will be leaving soon"

In the packet was the SURCOUF's Tricolor.

Before my father went into the Army in 1943, he heard rumors that the SURCOUF had been lost.

This segment of the SURCOUF story can be found in Rusbridger's book on pages 97 - 98.

Although there had been some correspondence through the years with the French Government and the Maritime Museum about the flag, I believe there was an unfortunate

breakdown in the lines of communication between the French Officials and my father. As a result, nothing to this point has been done to return this relic.

If the proper contacts can once again be made with the French Officials, my sisters are planning to travel to Paris to return SURCOUF'S Tricolor to the People of France.

I think this is the way my father always wanted it.

Thank You,

Bob

 

Welcome to the forum, Bob. I'm sure you will enjoy your stay. I was familiar with the Surcouf only as to her type and general configuration, i.e. a gun-armed submarine-cruiser, but your post stimulated me to learn more. The first new thing I learned was that Surcouf was deeply immersed in the dark and hostile waters of Vichy/British politics, even to the extend of deadly incidents between members of her crew and Royal Marines. These tensions led to accusations of treasonous actions against Surcouf, even though she was part of the Free French Navy.

I have a question for you, Bob. Is the Tricolore in your possession a standard French flag, i.e. no device or emblem? The classic 1853 naval ensign was the official flag of Vichy French navy, and as such in WWII, was an enemy color. The Free French naval ensign had the Cross of Lorraine added to the center. If your flag is unadorned then there may be more significance there than merely the personal friendship between your father an a French submariner.

 

You lucky boy, thats a hell of a souvenir, to say the least!

 

9,800 feet down at 10°40′N 79°32′W. Here's my $2...

Based on what little I've read I'm very skeptical of the collision theory.

 

HI Again!

The Surcouf flag that I have has no adornment, just the three colors. I guess that would be the standard French flag, and as you say, it

may open up other questions. Interesting.

I have been trying to post a picture of the flag on this forum but I don't seem to be having much luck. Must be something I'm not doing

quite right. I'll keep trying!

Thanks!

Bob

 

Hi , you can try it via a buffer site like imageshack or photobucket. Once you posted it there you can paste your picture here.

 

Bob,
Great story. Thanks for sharing that. Have you posted a photo on the forums anywhere?

 

yes, he has tried: read post 26 +27

 

Trying to post photo of Surcouf flag. Haven't had a lot of luck so far,

maybe I'll get it this time!!


Bob

 

I could easily imagine most Free French ships had a few outdated tricolors floating around either unintentionally or possibly for intentional false flag operations. Can any of the vets out there talk about how common it was or wasn't to have false flags aboard ship in different navies? I imagine, at least in the USN, regulations addressed it.

Fascinating Story, Mr. Davies. And I'm glad you've got her up. Surely an invaluable artifact.

 

Because of the wear it's very difficult to determine whether your flag is a proper naval ensign (i.e. one that might have been flown from Surcouf's mast head) or French national colors used for another purpose. The difference is slight, but it was a matter of law and custom. The 1853 ensign is asymmetrical in that the red and white bar are wider than the blue bar, the proportions being 30:33:37. If you carefully measure the white bar and compare it to the blue you may discover evidence that your relic may indeed be a former ensign of that famous ship.

I offer this not as skepticism about your story, but as advice for additional research. Anecdotal evidence is not given much weight by experts in the field of WWII relics and memorabilia.

 

It appears that the blue bar is wider than the white bar. The blue bar is approx. 12 1/4" wide and the white is approx. 12" wide when measured on the centerline. It is quite

hard to get accurate measurements as the material is quite delicate and easily distorted.

On the back side of the hemmed/halyard edge there is stenciled the letters/numbers PF 15.

The brass halyard clips (though not a "thumb action" clip as I am used to seeing) certainly appear to have seen some "sea duty" by the corrosion on them.

Actually, the whole flag seems to have spent a lot of time in the wind!! It has a rather "pulled" appearance, the top and bottom edges are not parallel to each other,

rather it tapers down from the blue bar to the red. Or was it a tapered flag when new?

The blue material, itself, is in good condition, the white much less and the red in tatters. I suppose that would be expected as the red would see more movement when it was used.

Very interesting!!

Bob

 

Actually many of their flags were British made and later American made. I recently bought a sailor Uniform from a Free Frenchman that had served on the Triomphant and who was based in New-York and Boston in 1944 while the ship was under repairs. The man had his entire uniform renewed by a Massachussett company. I even found the card in his uniform.

It says : Snyder's Naval Outfitters Corp. Navy Coast Guard and Merchant Marine Uniforms. 15 Chelsea Street, Charleston, Mass.

 

My father was a welder at Electric Boat (EB) in Groton,CT. during WWII. He and another welder were brought up to the Submaraine Base to do a repair to the snout of the Mackerel. He asked the captain what had happened and was told they followed the Surcouf down the Thames river into Long Island Sound with a skeleton crew and no weapons. They observed the Surcouf offloading supplies to a U-Boat. The Mackerel then rammed the Surcouf broadside and sank it off New London,CT in the sound.

 

Thought these pics might be useful.

 

From what I read these are blue reprints issued by the Amis du Musée de la Marine in 1955

 

It would appear there are more questions surrounding the demise of the Surcouf than the Kennedy Assassination. Intrigue at it's best ! Is the most acceptable explanation a series of mishaps led to her sinking off Panama ? Has her wreckage been found?
.


Gaines

 

and now a 1943 dated paper model