Tankettes

You're welcome - thought the 'pro' side needed some ammo. Need a thread leader ruling on something - could we maybe count the Matilda 1 as a tankette? - obviously it wasn't 'lightly armoured' but in every other sense it fits the bill?

 

I wouldn't think so, I forgot to mention that 90% of tankettes were turetless
So i dont know about this Matilda...

 

Don't want to be difficult because i agree the matilda shouldn't be in here, but on the turret question i think you're way off base - i would say closer to a quarter had turrets although not got real figures yet - example attached is the Romanian R-1, but look at the Japanese list and you will find most are turreted, and there are many more.

Maybe you are right and we should just agree that a turret of any kind makes it a light tank?

It is a hard line to pick between light tank and tankette but here has to be the place we can try to figure out the line - maybe it should just be based on if the manufacturers called it a tankette? although that obviously makes non-English speaking countries models hard to classify

 

On a separate note just found this great looking beast that i hadn't heard of before - the Marmon-Herrington CTVL supplied to Mexico. (and no turret lol)

 

Nice one! Looks like that you need an can opener to fight this, or wait its mexican than you need tortillas with red hot chilli pepper and a beer to get them out!;-))

 

I think if the brakes were on you could probably just push it over!

 

Now then chaps.
How on earth can a Tankette thread have got to 25+ posts with no mention of the rather magnificently named Giffard LeQuesne Martel?
Surely the 'Mechanical originator' of the solid concept (following on from Estienne's & Fuller's thoughts), and quite likely the first to trial a 'working' tankette.
I think of Carden Loyds and their ilk as they were actually fielded more as examples of the 'carrier' concept, whereas the Morris/Martels really were an attempt at fully protected miniature tanks.

Involved in the WW1 pioneering of tanks from a Military Engineering viewpoint, and later able to indulge his whims as head of the EBE, he also probably holds the claim (blame?) for pushing the trialing of the first Tankettes in an operational manner during the immensely significant 'Mechanised force' exercises of the late '20s.

First prototype. (If it looks like it's made of wood... that's because it is.
Knocked up in his Garage at his own expense.) :


Tankettes seem ridiculous to us now, but the arguments over their validity and usage ran rampant at the time. They're fascinating in that they come from a time when people were still unsure as to exactly what 'a tank' should be, and how it should be used. The First war had only really proved that there was some validity to mechanised & armoured vehicles in warfare, but left nothing standing out as an obvious answer.
There are some fine photographs of the Giant Independent & Tiny Martels beavering alongside them that illustrate the uncertainty rather well... but I can't find them at the moment.
So this fearsome array of Martels and carden Loyd's that formed the Mechanised force's recon element will have to do:

I do. Not that I'd want to go to war in one, or anything else for that matter

Martel's Autobiography 'An Outspoken Soldier' is worth a shufti in regard to early thinking on Tankettes, as is David Fletcher's 'Mechanised force'.

~A

(And if anyone else has a soft spot for Carden Loyds - they might enjoy this superb replica knocked up by Bob Grundy: Carden Loyd MG Carrier)

 

Was this the photo you meant Von Poop? If so I think they are Carden-Loyds at the front but might be martels in the background

 

Also further to your post - about the Martel's being the first - I think that needs to be thrown open to debate a bit but I'm not quite sure if talking about the early ones isn't a little too far off the WW2 topic?

If not then I propose the Ford 3-ton M1918 is probably the earliest working example of the type - again the question comes up if it was a tankette or a light tank, but at least it should be considered.

 

That's certainly one of them.
A fine illustration of Early 20th Century military uncertainty.
That photograph was taken at 'The Dominion premiers' demonstration at Camberley in 1926 (Visiting commonwealth Prime Ministers came over to be extensively schmoozed/cajoled/nagged by the UK on a variety of matters). Independent was fresh from the factory, and intended to wow the visiting dignitaries and press. One can't help thinking the swarm of tankettes was to enhance the impression of it's size as much to demonstrate those machines...

On 'What is a tankette' - I find that semantic argument very tricky, almost as tricky as 'what is a tank'.
If reluctantly forced to speculate - The M1918 had a two-man crew, and the tankette concept as originally envisioned was of machines that could be fought by one man. Almost a 'modern' envisioning of the armoured Knight.

~A

 

I think a group of the organisers of the event just had a bet on what would get run over first!

 

Off the top of my head I can't think of any true WW2 tankettes that were only a one man crew so excluding 2 man machines makes things a bit difficult here - but you're right about the early idea for sure. Perhaps the Holt HA36 (1918 also) counts as the first one man machine? (sorry not found any photos/much info yet)

 

'HA36' with Holt & Swinton:


Explained somewhat:
Another "Busted" Tank Myth

"A miniature model of the famous British War-tanks".

 

I'd kind of discounted that one lol - i still have faith that the actual HA 36 could have existed at least briefly (incidentally do you have a direct link between the toy and the actual HA36 designation?) - I'm working on it right now - this has got me intrigued but thanks anyway - great bit of original info which is so rare these days.

Busy working through some stuff on this site;
WWI one man tank reference - Landships WW1 Forum

 

No. think I have to give up on the HA36;


"The small tank that is shown in your picture of Benjamin Holt and Ernest Swinton was a wooden mock-up powered by a motorcycle engine and was especially made for the visit of Gen. Swinton in April of 1918. The tractor--which was a standard Holt '75' was used by the military but was no different than other '75' made for agricultural and construction work. We have a number of photographs in our archives of the Swinton visit to Stockton.

Tod Ruhstaller
Director
The Haggin Museum
Stockton, CA, USA"

I expect if it did exist he might have mentioned it!

 

We mustn't forget the Russian T-series which were produced almost throughout the war

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Soviet_tank_T-37a.jpg

 

How about the Russian 'Sh'itonovska' or 'SHCHitonoska' - also seems to be a myth tankette (from 1919) but the picture is relatively convincing - opinion around the net seems to be divided about this vehicle, many seem to think it was never built?

Anyone any real info?

If it was built then could be the first 1 man tankette?


On further research it appears the pictures are of a US effort called the T-1 and there are none about of the Russian one if it is real but no more info than that yet;

Seems as certain now as internet research can be that the photos are of the American T-1 and it was produced in 1927 or 1928.

 

Back to more modern tankettes - not so well known - the Russian PPG - about 100 of these were apparently built for use in Finland but arrived too late, and haven't been able to find any accounts of them being used after the German invasion - anyone any info would be greatly appreciated

 

Found another one man version in the 'name that tank' thread but unfortunately not much info - Italian Ansaldo MiAs - wasn't put into series production - i had no luck so far on a date - anyone any info?

 

Here's a picture of the Renault Sabathe 1-man tankette - rumoured to have been one built - no date yet for sure but think was 1928 or just before - any more info out there?

Crew - 1
Weight - 2.3 tons
Dimensions -lenght: 3.2m (hull 2.6m), width: 1.4m, height: 1.1m, ground clearance: 0.24m
Armor - 11mm.
Armament - 1 x 7.92mm Hotchkiss wz.25 machine gun
Engine - petrol, 4-stroke, 4-cylinder, water-cooled, type Renault, 18 hp.
Maximum speed - 8 km/h
Range - 36 km
Negotiated obstacles - gradient: 45o, trench: 1.5m, vertical obstacles: 0.55m, fording: 0.3m