Terror Deaths in Paris

Can't agree with that, since many of the suicide bombers are western converts. Why are they destroying the cultures they were raised in to protect one they decided to adopt?
That's not religion, it's being f****ed in the head.

 

Well, you get those 72 virgins. I don't get that either - I'd prefer 72 ladies with some expertise, but then I don't get much about Islam.

 

No, it makes perfect sense. It's been long known that the new convert to a religion is more enthusiastic about the religion than one who has been raised in it. Hell it happens with anything. Everyone's known at least one born again jogger or exercise junky.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/97976/prevent-strategy-review.pdf


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2013/may/24/islam-converts-woolwich-attackers-extremists

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/are-converts-more-likely-to-be-more-zealous.15503/


EDIT: What do you suppose the probability is that a person who joins a religion opposed to western culture doesn't like western culture. Regardless of where they were raised or more likely, because of where and how they were raised.

 

The 'West' should put aside their prejudice against Putin and join together to get rid of this menace. We are all aiming for one goal. There is propaganda coming from the West re the evil Russians and vice-versa. One lot is as bad as the other and all have undercover operations and 'goings-on' that we know nothing about. Governments are not squeaky clean yet they claim the moral high ground. All countries affected by ISIS have to unite as discord plays into the hands of the terrorists. Unity is the only way as piecemeal efforts are not working - obviously

 

toki, I think you are missing that the wars in Syria and Ukraine are intertwined with each other.

 

Goats, virgins, they're interchangeable for those people.

 

I see many times in mass, and spree killings, American men using their bodies as a shield for others....US military men still 'sacrifice' themselves for their comrades[ not direct suicide ]....the western culture never really ''taught'' suicide...the Japanese had the kamikazes.....the kamikazes were just wasting their lives for nothing.....really stupid....banzai attacks--really stupid...I can understand fighting for your country.....but direct suicide is plain stupid....their culture is obviously warped....
what is so important to them?? this is hurting their cause more than helping..what's their cause?? a new country?? well they should be blowing up the French military, not Paris

what do you think is going through their mind right before the big ''blow up'' ?? besides mom, home?? '' I'm screwed now , I have to do it''
'''this is going to help the cause'' ?? "' this will teach the French""

 

remember the WW2 bombing of the English civilians--if anything, it produced strength, determination, etc instead of breaking their will

 

There's truth in that, but the people who tend to shout loudest about the "evils" of western culture tend to be products of it themselves. The same ones from comfortable backgrounds who describe themselves as "anti-materialistic" but wouldn't dream of practising what they preach.

 

I don't believe anyone has ever stated that a persons actions have to be logical. Much less the actions of a religion or government.

 

if they were trying to get the French people to get the French politicians to stop French attacks on ISIS, history shows you can rarely get the masses behind you with a single operation.....

but don't the suiciders think they are doing something logical?? they think their suicide is a logical action?

 

Most likely they feel they were doing something necessary. Something that needed to be done. Their individual reasoning I can only conjecture.

 

Bronk, some US pows said they thought the US bombings in Germany caused German troops who otherwise might have given up...to fight harder as well.

Robert Bowen wrote about this in his book, "Fighting With the Screaming Eagles". He was captured early on near Champs west of Bastogne.

 

The French Ambassador has asked Australia to commit more militarily....the government is mulling it over...

 

I thought I read that also....and, wouldn't you ?

'''Stade de France suicide bomber Ahmed Almuhamed travelled to France as an asylum seeker through Greece after being saved from a sinking ship. Greek ferry tickets reveal he travelled to Europe with another man named as Mohammed Almuhamed.'''

I know I have ,and some others have been, saying this long before these Paris bombings..refugees, asylum seekers, immigrants are a security problem.......they also set up sleeper cells..they have the Belgian sleeper mastermind.......who waited and planned for years before attacking

Juliet Foxtrot Charlie! people should've seen this coming in the 80s, after the 79 Iran hostage crisis, Munich 72', Achille Lauro, etc etc etc.....

and whoever leaked that Iraqi spies knew of the plot --if true -- did a great disservice to not only them, but to us

 

what is the suiciders mission?? to get revenge? well, they only have a few seconds of that...to start a war? to change France's view on military strikes? if it was only one attacker, it would be an individual ''human' nature' thing...but we have many suiciders....seems like a cultural thing....
if it is a revenge idea, and I think part of it is, their culture is very warped....as opposed to a single indvidual, who's mind is gone....
we see and have seen many, many bombings in the ME--Beirut used to have them, Israel, Baghdad, Kabul, etc etc....they kill many innocents....seems like it's their culture....no!not because the bomb is the easiest, most efficient, etc weapon of choice..it's in their ''blood''...''I get revenge".....

 

Terrorist organizations operate much as cults do. They seek out disenfranchised loners who want something, anything that makes them feel special rather than just a ordinary and unremarkable person. Like cults they try to 'cull' these people from the herd and scoop them up.

Spectacular attacks like these are as much recruiting posters as they are actual attacks upon a perceived enemy. The more we publicize these, the more effective they become.

 

Normally I use the rabid dog analogy. In honor of the recipients though perhaps rabid pig is the one we should be using ...

Exactly what they are hopeing for. I'd prefer to counter their goals rather than promote them.

I agree not easy, cheap, or quick. Eliminating ISIS won't necessarly leave a void though. The problem is that ISIS is to some extent a symptom rather than the disease. Now it's a symptom that is damaging and so needs to be treated on it's own but to eliminate or at least reduced to a neglegable level the terrorist threat we need to treat the overall problem. IMO it's a combination of poverty, corruption, and tribalism. Question is will it require breaking more eggs that we're willing to break.

I am not so sure that that hasn't been going on. I've read that the terrorist that have come to the US have been told not to contact local Moslims because they can't be trusted to side with the terrorrist and not to report them. In Afghanistan and Iraq the terrorist have targeted cell phone companies and towers because the locals have used them to make reports to the authorities. The French thawared a number of terrorist attacks in the last few months from what I've read. I suspect at least some were due to cooperation from local Moslims. Just because we don't hear about something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

From what I've read hoplessness and anger are the prompts along with the terrorist leadership promising (and deliverinig in some cases) on things to improve the lot of the bombers family if not his lot. Take someone who is living in poverty and repression along with their family. Promise them revenge, paradise, and money for their family and you have a pretty persuasive argment to those who don't look close at the fine print. Dealing with the devil comes to mind.

 

The most important diffence IMO is that fundamentalism in general elevates belief over all else while, at least in the idealized version, western philosophy elevates logic and reason over belief. Giving ones life for another is an honored tradition in both. Fundamentalist Islam has corrupted that principle to the point where giving ones life to kill innocents is seen as an act of faith. Indeed the act of doing so makes it one but not one really supported by the Koran. Of course in some areas the term sucide bomber is being misused IMO. When you strap a bomb vest on a kid and tell him to go to the market without mentioning that it's a bomb vest you just strapped on him and that you have a remote detonator, "suicide" is not really the appropriate word as far as I'm concerned.

I disaagree. Indeed in many ways Putin is a greater threat to the West than ISIS. The latter is really self limiting and dones't control a nation state with nuclear missiles. I'm also not at all convinced that Putin really wants to destroy ISIS. I strongly suspect that as long as ISIS wasn't threatening his goals he'd be more than happy to coexist with them.

I suspect they don't see it as a "few seconds" of revenge. Remember most of them have at least been told it's their ticket to paradise. Then there are the payments to their families which are likely to be living in poverty. Mostly these guys aren't the brightest bulbs in the pack either. The intelligent ones are making the bombs and directing the attacks or running the financial end of things.