The Western Allies took Berlin.

If there was a race between Monty or Patton or the Soviets then i believe that Monty was closer to Berlin and had Monty had ignored orders to halt when he did to allow the Soviets to take Berlin and advance towards Berlin then i would see a senario that the Germans on the Eastern Front fighting like hell to halt the advance of the Soviets just long enough for the western Allies to take Berlin, but that is on the proviso that there hed been no agreement on how Germany would be divided up post war.

Just a senario.

 

Monty Was also closer to Messina but who took it? Monty was further East in Normandy but who broke out? Patton did not have the resistance that the Russians were facing and Patton would have pushed hell for leather to beat Monty to Berlin. He would have done it had he been given the go ahead but it would not have been worth it as we now know. The Russians were better suited to take Berlin.

 

PzJgr

Look at the confrences in early 1944 and you will see why 3rd Army busted out of Normandy.

 

I am aware of that Jaeger and Monty was in a similar position fighting in the Ruhr. Patton had no such resistance and was in a better position to head for Berlin. He did make it to Czechoslavakia by wars end did he not?

 

Patton may have beaten Monty "to" Berlin, but I think he's out of his element there. He's used to gaining ground, not city fighting.

I think.

 

Agreed. The Russians were better suited for that type of warfare.

 

Russian offensive started on the 15th of december to 21st of march in 1944. The offensive started from Warsaw and ended up less then 70 miles from Berlin. The allied offensive in Germany started one day after the Russians stopped. On the 22nd of March and ended on the 18th of April on the River Elbe.

From my understanding the Allies were more then 500 miles away from Berlin when at the when Soviets were less then 70, how could the Allies have beaten them to it?

 

The battle for Seelowe Heights began Apr 16th. It took the Soviets 5 days of fighting before heading towards the outskirts of Berlin. On the 24th, the Americans and Soviets met up on the river Elbe which is only 100km away. But the Americans were already there just waiting because Eisenhower would not let them cross. So they could have made the move to Berlin and enter about the same time if not ahead of the Soviets.

The Soviets were facing tough resistance, at least tougher than what Patton was facing and pretty sure that the Germans would have allowed Patton to head towards Berlin. Rather the Americans rather than the Russians to take Berlin. They knew what was coming.

 

US forces did cross the Elbe at two points, but both came under German counter-attacks, and in fact, one was forced back over the river. This convinced Eisenhower (if he really needed convincing ) that the German's were not just going to let his forces advance to Berlin unopposed

 

My understanding of the senario is that the Western Allies had crossed over the River Elbe and wanted to advance to Berlin as the Soviets had bogged down but the Western Allies were ordered back not because of some German counter-attack but due to an agreement that the Allies had made inso far as the Soviets were given the job of securing the capture of Berlin.

But now we progress onto the original thread and not dealing in what actually happened as so many on this forum keep doing and concentrate on what if, the Western Allies have just reached the River Elbe and have discovered that the German defenses are weakened in no part due to many German divisions being transferred to the east of Berlin and the Soviets are heavily bogged down in shifting an ever increasing German resolve to halt the Soviets and to allow the Western Allies to take Berlin.

Eisenhower seeing this but fully aware of the agreement decides that Berlin is too great an oportunity to ignore and he decides that Patton and Monty should race each other to capture Berlin, this angers Stalin but at this point not much he can do about it as his forces have been halted by a desperated German defense and in the wash-up Western Allies enter Berlin.

 

PzJgr

I am not low keying Patton or questioning his abilities. What ticked me off is that phrased it like the Normandy breakout was a race. It was not. In the early conferences in 1944 Monty explained his stage managment of the Normandy campaign. Drawing Rommels precious Panzers on the Canadian/British front, and busting out on the American side.

It was an ideal arrangement in my book since the US army was better equipped and had a more suited doctrine for such an undertaking.

 

Yes, and there have been debates about that conference whereas it was presented as Monty making excuses and taking credit for the success of the breakout (not saying this is correct just what was printed out there). Sorry, I was not trying to go into that debate here. I was going by the facts and not so much on the behind the scenes planning. Patton has always been more aggressive in attacks compared to Monty. Did not mean for it to downgrade Monty. I was trying to emphasize Patton's style of conducting warfare. I always like his phrase when it came to withdrawals "I don't like to pay for the same real estate twice"

Also, I would have thought that Eisenhower would have wanted to take Berlin first because of not allowing the Russians to get their hands onto the Atomic Bomb material located at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute which ended up giving the Russians 3 tons of uranium oxide, a material the russians were short of, allowing them to kick-start Operation Borodino, Their own nuclear program. Thus advancing them in the nuclear arms race.

 

Well I think that in this " what if ", in case of a race between Patton and Monty for the capture of Berlin, I am going to put my money on Patton.

However, something tells me that there would be serious drawbacks as a result of this decision.

 

Totally agreed. What were the Russian losses for taking Berlin, around 70,000.

 

Yes around that I believe, maybe slightly higher with some Polish casualties mixed in on the Soviet side.

 

The conference in which Monty laid out the plan for the Normandy campaign in which the British and Commonwealth forces would act as a strong hinge while the US forces would eventually sweep south and east, took place before the D-Day landings.

As for Monty taking the credit for the break-out, it has to be remembered he was the Allied Ground Commander at the time of the break-out, which meant he would get a least a share in the credit for the US break-out anyway

 

As already has been explained, there was no agreement. Churchill did want to advance on Berlin, but was over-ruled by the US.

Eisenhower didn't play silly games, there would have been no race. In my view, neither Monty or Patton would have been given the job. Monty would have been sent north, like he was in reality, to ensure the Soviets didn't reach Denmark before the Western forces, and Patton would have still been sent into Austria. It would have been Bradley who was given the mission to take Berlin.

 

I doubt that Eisenhower was even aware of the progress on building an Allied nuclear bomb, let alone where the German atomic program was up too.
While the German atomic material was probably useful to the Soviets, I doubt it played a major part in the success of the post-war Soviet atomic project.

 

Redcoat, i don't get it, if by you mean that Britain was overruled by the US in so far as advancing towards Berlin then for me that indicates that there must have been a secret agreement between the US and USSR in who takes Berlin and that Britain was not told of that secret agreement, which does not surprise me at all considering that Britain was being slowly but surely pushed aside as one of the Allies.

The Bradley senario sounds plausible, i had not considered Bradley, not bad a choice.

And you are correct on one point i don't think that any of the top brass in the field knew of the atomic bombs being developed.

 

Eisenhower is quoted many places in asking 'Brad how many men do you think we'll lose taking Berlin?' Brad replied with an estimate of 100.000 men, Ike decided that it was to costly given that they had to give it to the USSR.