Tigers destroyed by 12.7mm guns?

so either way

who is an expert?

are you ?

I was not at Kursk either..

By this time, Shturmovik pilots had refined their tactics. Flying in attack groups of 8 to 12, in open country they would attack "soft" targets such as infantry or trucks simply skimming in at 5 to 10 meters (16 to 32 feet) altitude. Against stationary "hard" targets such as bunkers they would use near-vertical dive-bombing attacks. Against armor moving in a column, they would proceed straight down the column or weave over it in a shallow S-curve, dropping their PTAB antitank bombs from an altitude of 100 to 150 meters (320 to 480 feet).

Against armor in offensive formation, however, they preferred the "Circle of Death" attack, in which a Shturmovik group would flank around the enemy and then peel off successively, each Il-2 making a shallow diving attack, then pulling up and around for another pass. The beauty of the Circle of Death was that it kept the enemy under continuous fire for as long as the aircraft had fuel and ammunition.

One Shturmovik pilot, Senior Lieutenant Alexander Yefinov, wrote: "We usually tried to attack from the rear, where the armor was thinner and where the most vulnerable components of the vehicles were located: the engines and the gas tanks." He proudly added that "the effect was staggering as Hitler's celebrated Tigers burned under the strikes." Il-2M3s armed with 37 millimeter guns were able to destroy Panthers and Tigers with their guns alone, blasting into their thinner top armor.




this darn Rooski must be a puttin out that commie propaganda

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avil2.html

Russky musor- Ti Ponymayesh Komrad?

 

The Battle of Kursk was a significant Soviet victory, and would soon lead to rolling back the Germans all along the Russian Front. The Shturmovik had been a significant contributor to the success of Red arms. Il-2s destroyed 70 tanks of the 9th Panzer Division in a mere 20 minutes, inflicted losses of 2,000 men and 270 tanks in two hours of attack on the 3rd Panzer Division, and effectively destroyed the 17th Panzer Division in four hours of strikes, smashing 240 vehicles out of their total of almost 300.

Moget bit polno musor

maybe its all garbage

Flt Lt. who- never met him either

 

No matter how many articles you post, it will not change the numbers: Only 35 Tigers (and Tiger IIs) are known to have been destroyed by aircrafts during World War II.

In regards to your last post, I find it very impressive that the Il-2s destroyed 270 tanks from the 3. Panzer-Division, considering the division only had 90 tanks to begin with. Likewise, the destruction of 240 tanks out of the 17. Panzer-Division's 67 is quite amazing as well. The feat of destroying 70 out of the 9. Panzer-Division's 83 tanks is also quite impressive. So, these three divisions on average lost about 242 % of their total number of tanks - within 20minutes, two and four hours respectively? I wonder what these divisions fought with for the rest of the campaign...

Dare I ask how many Tigers were destroyed at Kursk, in total?

Christian

 

yeah I must admit that I thought that a panzer division tank strength started around 300 in 39 and dropped to about 200 by 43. These included all marks I to IV and those in refit, repair.

FNG

 

just checked panzer tank numbers, 561 in 35, 300 in 39, 200 in 41 down to 164 in 42. This would be made up of all marks.

Source - George Forty, German Tanks of WW2

However you do refer to vehicles which would suggest not tanks.

FNG

 

Those were the numbers on paper, though - they were never attained in reallife (except for the Tiger-Abteilungen, which generally had the 45 Tigers they were entitled to).

Christian

 

I said it included all makes and those not available for combat under repair, refit or burning on a battlefield somewhere. These are the maximum numbers that would be available under perfect circumstances.

FNG

 

B-25s

point of history- the B-25 carried .50s not 20mm. up to 14x counting the top turret guns. and yes they could about saw a DD in half. many ships got sunk by .50 armed aircraft

 

>No matter how many articles you post, it will not change the numbers: Only 35 Tigers (and Tiger IIs) are known to have been destroyed by aircrafts during World War II.


Frankly, I really don't believe you. I would bet almost that many were killed in the Failaise gap alone.

You can post all the pithy unsupported comments you want to, you have failed to change my mind.

35 huh, just were did you pull that number from.

 

Re: B-25s

On the contrary; it was the very same old 75 mm M-4 field cannon used to rout the Germans in WW1! A few months before the incident, Colonel Paul Gunn of the US Fifth Air Force in Australia, had experimented with the installation of a 20 mm cannon in the nose of a B-25. Colonel Gunn, abetted by a North American Aviation Company Tech Rep named Jack Fox, sent the idea to North American in Inglewood, California where it was promptly taken a step further and worked into the installation of the 75 mm cannon


naaah they put in 75 mm and 20 mm cannons..

lmme get pictures for ya

http://www.aviation-history.com/north-american/b25.html


Then came the installation of the 75 mm cannon. It required a crewman to load, fire and extract the casing. And when it fired it felt like the aircraft had "hit a brick wall", but with its 2.95 inch (75 mm) projectile, it could turn a tank into scrap metal and punch very large holes in Japanese destroyers and barges at a range of nearly 2 miles. The Japanese paid dearly for the ideas of Kenney and the ingenuity of Gunn.





compare these 20mm to the next photo 50 cal

 

75 mm

 

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/John/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/tm.htm#

Thanks to these guys for the photos of the 50 cal, 20 mm and the 75 mm mounted on the B25

 

http://www.13thbombsquadron.org/histori ... 5guns.html


I am in the process of building an A20 Havoc with the 20 mm guns



more on the 75 mm gun/ 20 mm vs the 50 cal


http://www.armyairforces.com/forum/m_70063/tm.htm#

 

more on the 75 mm B-25

http://www.aerothentic.com/history/Pilo ... grover.htm


one account of Kursk losses


Kursk Reconsidered: Germany's Lost Victory

The number of SS tanks actually involved in the battle has been variously reported as high as 700 by some authorities, while others have estimated between 300 to 600. Even before the Battle of Kursk began, however, the II SS Panzer Corps never had 500 tanks, much less 700. On July 4, the day before Operation Citadel was launched, Hausser's three divisions possessed a total of 327 tanks between them, plus a number of command tanks. By July 11, the II SS Panzer Corps had a total of 211 operational tanks--Totenkopf had 94 tanks, Leibstandarte had only 56 and Das Reich possessed just 61. Damaged tanks or tanks undergoing repairs are not listed. Only 15 Tiger tanks were still in action at Prochorovka, and there were no SS Panthers available. The battalions that were equipped with Panthers were still training in Germany in July 1943.

On July 13, the day after the Battle of Prochorovka, Fourth Panzer Army reports declared that the II SS Panzer Corps had 163 operational tanks, a net loss of only 48 tanks. Actual losses were somewhat heavier, the discrepancy due to the gain of repaired tanks returned to action. Closer study of the losses of each type of tank reveals that the corps lost about 70 tanks on July 12. In contrast, Soviet tank losses, long assumed to be moderate, were actually catastrophic. In 1984, a history of the Fifth Guards Tank Army written by Rotmistrov himself revealed that on July 13 the army lost 400 tanks to repairable damage. He gave no figure for tanks that were destroyed or not available for salvage. Evidence suggests that there were hundreds of additional Soviet tanks lost. Several German accounts mention that Hausser had to use chalk to mark and count the huge jumble of 93 knocked-out Soviet tanks in the Leibstandarte sector alone. Other Soviet sources say the tank strength of the army on July 13 was 150 to 200, a loss of about 650 tanks. Those losses brought a caustic rebuke from Josef Stalin. Subsequently, the depleted Fifth Guards Tank Army did not resume offensive action, and Rotmistrov ordered his remaining tanks to dig in among the infantry positions west of the town

 

source on German losses at Kursk


http://www.thehistorynet.com/wwii/blkursk/index1.html


A few strafer B-25's modified at Brisbane during April-May 1943, carried, in addition to the 50 calibre four gun nose battery, a single fixed 20 mm cannon in the forward firing position at about the 4 o'clock position as you look at a strafer nose. They were not very effective due to the problem of syncronizing their firing trajectory with the nose guns, and other problems, and were soon removed and the position faired over. In addition to the nose gun installation, all C & D strafers were fitted with two additional 50 calibre machine guns (two on each side, total of four) fitted in separate side package housings on each side of the lower fuselage, below the cockpit. This gave a total forward firing armament barrage of 8 x 50 cal Machine Guns, plus, on a few aircraft, one 20mm cannon

B25 strafer field mods

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozatwar/fieldmods.htm

 

SILLY RAF BRITS -HERE THEY TALK ABOUT DESTROYING A FEW TIGERS
\


Great as these achievements were, they were far surpassed by those of December. In one fortnight of intensive flying from Bellaria between the 14th and the 27th, the Squadron received no less than four telegrams of congratulation from the army for the magnificent support given them. The first followed a straffing attack on December 14th on enemy troops dug in on the banks of the Naviglio Canal only 300 yards ahead of our own troops. General Hoffmeister, Officer Commanding 5th Canadian Division, later told Major Gasson, who led the attack, that enemy casualties from this attack were over thirty killed and when his troops went forward to occupy the position, they took seventy prisoners for the loss of only two men! The next day two Tiger tanks were destroyed and an enemy counter- attack broken up in the Bagnacavallo and Fusignano areas. Gp/Cpt Dundas, the Officer Commanding 244 Wing, added his congratulations and those of all the other squadrons on the Wing to those already expressed by the army. A most successful straffing attack on Boxing Day enemy troops dug in along the Senio river, a mile and a half below Alfonsini, was followed on the 27th by the bombing of a Tiger tank concealed in a farmhouse near Castel Bolognese. The army later told us that it had been found 'brewed up'. But what gave us particular satisfaction was an attack on an enemy observation post in a church tower in Bagnacavallo on December 17th. Before '92' was called in, the other squadrons in the Wing had flown no less than thirty-six sorties in attempts to flatten it. All had failed, but Captain Lee, Flight Sergeant Peacock, Flight Lieutenant Wright, Sergeant Doyle, Sergeant Wilson and Pilot Officer (name illegible. Asst. Ed.) demolished it with four direct hits and two near misses!

*********


Thanks to the excellent and inspiring leadership of Major Gasson, ably helped by Captain Lee, Flying Officer Taylor and Flying Officer Fain, we had by the end of 1944 established our supremacy as the foremost fighting unit of 244 Wing and therefore of the Desert Air Force. (In spite of having left North Africa in May 1943, the Desert Airforce kept its name until the end of the Italian campaign in May 1945.).With the army more or less static on the line of the Senio river for the first three months of the new year, the Squadron has had little support work to do and most of the time has been spent in doing the very neccessary and important, though less spectacular, work of cutting enemy lines of communication, destroying his rolling stock and road transport and impeding his water borne traffic in north and north east Italy. During these three months a total of 117 heavy guns has been destroyed with 143 damaged, 20 mechanised transport destroyed and 16 damaged, 9 barges destroyed and 42 damaged, 6 locomotives damaged and 14 armoured vehicles destroyed with 54 damaged. (There is a little confusion at this point as a separate list dated 31st March 1945 gives the following totals : Total tonnage of bombs dropped - 546 tons. 53 motor transport destroyed - including staff cars. 61 motor transport damaged. 45 heavy guns destroyed. 191 heavy guns damaged. 6 locomotives destroyed. 11 locomotives damaged. 9 barges destroyed. 11 barges damaged. 4 tanks destroyed - including 3 Tigers.



http://www.beverley92.karoo.net/main9.html

 

Anti-tank Rifles
At the beginning of the war, the only hand-held ranged AT weapons issued were usually anti-tank rifles, which were just large caliber rifles, with projectiles usually from 13mm - 20mm in diameter. While unable to destroy heavy armor, these weapons were used throughout the war, and could be surprisingly effective. The Russians and Finns had good ones. In his memoir, Otto Carius, a German Tiger Tank Ace, says that he hated them. While no danger to the crew of his Tiger behind the thick armor, a lucky shot could hit vital equipment, possibly causing a radiator or oil leak that could even disable the vehicle. Because they were operated by only a 1-2 man crew, they could operate from ambush and were usually not worth the effort of hunting down.


50 cal taking out Tigers....

 

Stonewall
I mentioned my source above. If you don't want to believe me, I have noproblem with that. There aremany people who are wrong, so one more won't make any difference.

I also don't understand why you now post a text on the losses at Kursk, completely contrary to what you posted before...

Christian

 

Kursk

acedemic

open honest discussion, letting the chips fall were they may, including posting counter arguements

wtf

 

so your buddy at another forum wrote a small pamplet...

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 4e32f3beb5

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14838

http://www.panzerworld.net/facts.html

YES I AGREE THERE ARE PLENTY OF PEOPLE POSTNG ON FORUMS, THAT DON'T KNOW ANYTHING, AND THEY WRITE SOME PUNY LITTLE PAMPLET, THAT NEVER GOT PUBLISHED


And they try dispute all the men that were alive and witnessed the actual events and


ALL I CAN DO IS LAUGH :bang:


but still I prefer to keep an open mind


The people at that other forum, who are propably the 'self proclaimed experts' of which you speak seem to have a nice respect of you...


ha


which has the most comprehensive record of the fate of the Tigers published.


correction:

self publsihed


Hey,

I have a HP printer too.


yawn