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True in Russian - Georgian conflict!

Discussion in 'Military History' started by Soviet man, Aug 15, 2008.

  1. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Hmm.... so 98% (90+ 8 ) wants independence. That would mean that 80%
    (8 out of 10%) of the Georgian population of Southern Ossetia wants indepence too. :confused:
     
  2. TheRedBaron

    TheRedBaron Ace

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    Why do the other 10% have to be Georgian?

    Given the ethnic diversity of the region that is very unlikely.



    Can I ask why Russia is being portrayed as the bad guy by the USA and George Bush?

    Georgia invade and Russia slaps them for it... Yet its the Russian who have to be punished? What a load of rot. Old Dubya should have chosen a better bed fellow than trying to get Georgia into NATO.

    As for Dubya calling Russia an 'agressor invading a sovreign nation' is he really anyone to talk?

    Im sorry but that guy is a screaming idiot. He berates Russia for pursuing a war and invading a sovereign nation AFTER he has done the same thing. Does he not realise what an idiot that makes him look? Does he not realise how damaging comments like that are to opinion of the US in other countries?

    Its a case of 'pot calling kettle black' and as far as Im concerned, the US should keep their nose out of it. They have made enough mess around the world.


    You can now all commence with the usual 'you are anti-american tirade' if you like...
     
    Vet likes this.
  3. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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  4. Troglodyte

    Troglodyte Member

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    I would say - neither of two!
    S. Ossetia had in fact autonomy within Georgia.
    Same if Serbia tryed to regain Kosovo by force just before they declaired officaly independance .
     
  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Don´t forget now that Russia has backed the separatists in the South ossetia area both financially and politically for a long time. Not just peacekeepers there. What would you call that?
     
  6. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    GEORGIA: SCENE OF THE OUTBREAK OF COLD WAR II?
    Elizabeth Owen and Giorgi Lomsadze 8/12/08
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    The Kremlin has called off its attack troops. But even as it suspends its armed assault on Georgia, Russia may well have fired the first shot of Cold War II.
    The United States and the European Union have appeared reluctant to engage in a superpower confrontation with Russia. But the aggressive actions and rhetoric of the Russian leadership tandem of Vladimir Putin and Dmitry Medvedev suggest that the Kremlin will keep pushing until the West has no option other than to confront Moscow in an adversarial way. In effect, the Georgia crisis has shown the West to be operating with a 21st century outlook, while the Kremlin seems to have reverted to a 19th century mindset.
    French President Nicolas Sarkozy flew to Moscow on August 12 for what promised to be tough talks concerning the new geopolitical balance in the Caucasus. According to various reports, Russian troops are now in control of large areas of Georgia proper, including the Western city of Zugdidi and the port city of Poti. Russian forces have also turned the city of Gori into a ghost town, thus severing road links between the eastern and western parts of Georgia. In addition, Russian and Abkhaz forces have pushed Georgian troops out of the Kodori Gorge, part of the separatist territory of Abkhazia.
    While Russian officials seem to have backed off a demand that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili resign, Moscow appears disinclined to relinquish its recent territorial gains. Medvedev made it clear on August 12 that Moscow no longer considers the separatist territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia to be Georgian. He also asserted that Russia was the sole guarantor of peace in the Caucasus. "This is how it was, and this is how it will be," Medvedev said.
    "The aggressor has been punished and sustained very serious losses," the Interfax news agency quoted Medvedev as saying.
    In what may be a prelude to formal annexation, Medvedev announced that under no circumstances would Georgian soldiers be allowed back on Abkhaz or South Ossetian territory. "They can no longer remain," Medvedev said during a news conference.
    Georgian officials and Western leaders seemed unsure if Russia would continue to refrain from further violence. "There was a substantial threat to the capital yesterday [August 11]. This threat is reduced, but not eliminated yet," Georgian Parliamentary Chairman David Bakradze told an emergency parliamentary session.
    The Georgian government reported several suspicious bombings in various locations, including Gori and Rustavi. The blasts occurred after Russia officially declared that it was suspending military operations. Moscow denied any involvement.
    Far more troubling, reports of atrocities committed by Russian troops and South Ossetian paramilitaries are filtering back to Tbilisi. Georgian government officials are asserting that Ossetians paramilitaries are ethnically cleansing Georgians found in the conflict zone, specifically in the villages of Nikosi, Kurta, and Armarishili. Many detainees are being sent to a camp in Kurta, some are being summarily executed, dispatched with a single bullet to the head, according to Georgian sources. Overall, there are an estimated 12,000 Russian troops in Georgia.
    Sarkozy’s tentative comments following his initial round of discussions with Russian leaders suggested that the Kremlin would not be easily mollified. A 6-point stabilization plan discussed by Sarkozy and Medvedev did not refer to Georgia’s territorial integrity, and it demanded that Tbilisi submit to a non-use of force pact. "We don’t yet have peace. But we have a provisional cessation of hostilities. And everyone should be aware that this is considerable progress," Sarkozy said. "There is still much work to be done. ... What we want is to secure the best result."
    Caught off guard by the ferocity of the Russian assault, the United States’ resolve to confront Moscow appears to be stiffening. US Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Matthew Bryza who traveled to Tbilisi in a bid to stabilize the situation, assailed Russia, saying the Kremlin had exceeded the bounds of civilized behavior. "As President Bush said again last night, this brutal form of behavior has no place in the 21st century, and by brutality I mean destroying, or trying to destroy, a government elected by the free citizens of a free country," Bryza stated.
    Much of Georgia’s economic infrastructure now lay in ruins. Bryza indicated that Russia, if it continued its present course, would not escape from the conflict unscathed. He called Putin’s decision to unleash the Russian military on Georgia "a tragedy for Russia itself and its standing in the world," adding that Russia’s relations with the United States and the Euro-Atlantic community had already been "severely damaged." The implication of Bryza’s comments appeared to be that if Russia continues to act aggressively, new Cold War battle lines will be quickly drawn.
    If there is any restraint currently acting on the Kremlin’s behavior, it would appear to be the domestic economy. Share prices plunged in Moscow as Russian troops poured into Georgia. The market stabilized somewhat upon Medvedev’s announcement on a suspension of hostilities.
    During his news conference, Medvedev’s rhetoric was at times decidedly unpresidential. In characterizing Saakashvili as a "lunatic," Medvedev invited questions about the mental state of the Kremlin leadership. He claimed only Russia’s use of overwhelming force could subdue what he portrayed as a crazed Georgian government. "You know, the way lunatics differ from other people is that when they smell blood, it is very difficult to stop them. So you have to use surgery," Medvedev said.
    Thousands gathered in downtown Tbilisi on August 12 for a rally against Russian aggression. The crowd chanted repeatedly "Georgia." Some were draped in Georgian flags and wore hats. Others chanted "Misha," Saakashvili’s nickname.
    "I may not be happy with everything that my government does," said one student draped in Georgian flag. "I may or may not like Saakashvili, but he is Georgian, I am Georgian and this is Georgia. They may drop bombs all they want, but we will never ever be Russia’s province." The mood in Tbilisi on August 12 appeared calmer compared to the previous day when rumors of approaching Russian tanks prompted many to flee the city. Cars lined up for gas, and with phone connections often down, the city seemed on the verge of panic. "I just grabbed whatever I could, took my wife, my children and my mother-in-law and we are headed South now, I don’t know where, as far as we can go, and then we will decide what to do," said Zurab Tatanashvili, a management consultant in Tbilisi as he was filling up his car’s tank.

    EurasiaNet Eurasia Insight - Georgia: Scene of the Outbreak of Cold War II?
     
  7. Soviet man

    Soviet man Member

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    Guys! Russia is not agressor. How can I explain? Listen piceful ossetians! Listen russian soldiers! Watch vids on youtube where showmans even don't allow to say what they see! Its explains many, I think! And ask me please! Its russians shoted first in georgians or its georgians shoted russians? Its georgians! And I say you again that Russia entered Ossetia to keep piece. Its the third time when georgians killed ossetians. First it was in 1920 year. In that time red army safed ossetians from brutal georgians. Next it was in 90 years. City Tshinaval was totally destoyed! And now! Georgians attacked russian's troops and piceful ossetians. And by the way! There is an american there! He said that its Georgia began it. SO if you don't trusted me, trust to him. There are also journalists which were attacked by goegians. And at last. I have a friend from Ossetia! How many timed I can said it to you? He said that it were georgians! Georgians! And why countries made Kosovo independence where citizens don't want it, and they don't want to made Ossetia independence where 98 % of ossetians want to separate from georgians? And by the way georgians hate all ossetians! How explain their operation "clean field"? Guys, bielive me, I said true, I have frined from Ossetia.
     
  8. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Have you taken into account Soviet man that the South ossetians want to take North Ossetia away from your country? Is it ok with you?
     
  9. Soviet man

    Soviet man Member

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    WHat do you talking about?
     
  10. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    The separatists in South Ossetia want independence, not to be part of any other nation. So they want to join the Ossetias together, meaning that the North Ossetia would not be part of Russia anymore if the separatists get what they want. And so far Russia has been backing their intention. Ok with you to lose North Ossetia?
     
  11. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    I (recently) learnt that it all started when a Russian garrisson was attacked in the middle of the night by Georgian troops who tried to take control of South ossetia. Then the Russians sent reinforcements. Is this true Soviet Man?
     
  12. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    Apparently that's the correct version, Skipper. Formally that makes the Georgians the aggressors, whatever the preceeding events.

    Kai, all this is a truly Caucasian mess. Are you saying there is a movement to join the two Ossetias together and create a separate Ossetian Republic? How viable will this be?

    And how many Russia / Georgia / Ossetia threads are we running at the same time? Another Caucasus mess :D
     
  13. Troglodyte

    Troglodyte Member

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    I think this is going to be hard to do. Considering they all have Russian citezinship.
     
  14. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    I must admit that would give the Russian some good cookies, but why sign a cease fire and not respect it then? Why don't they say, we have a job to finish first? By not honoring their promises they are damaging their reputation which will create more problems than solve them.
     
  15. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    I must admit that would give the Russian some good cookies, but why sign a cease fire and not respect it then? Why don't they say, we have a job to finish first? By not honoring their promises they are damaging their reputation which will create more problems than solve them.
     
  16. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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  17. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Both sides are in the wrong. The Georgians for the intial "Attack" and Russia for the disproportionate response and actions afterwards.
     
  18. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    They have accepted this because it allows them the chance to work in Russia and plus more ( education, health care etc ), but their people originate from Iran and they have a language of their own. If they unite with the rich North Ossetia they probably will not be needing the Russian passport as much.
     
  19. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    One soldier which will receive this award is a 32 year old major, who gave his life saving several journalist from GEORGIAN fire. These journalists were in a Russian hospital giving their thanks and talking about the events which followed. There is actual footage taken by the journalists which show the incident in question, and im sure Russia will be more then optimistic in sharing this with Europe.

    The same thing you would call the U.S. and Europe backing Kosovo. We must also not forget that South Ossetia gets practically all of its electricity and gas and from what I understand water from Russia too because Georgisa cut all of that off. ;)

    South Ossetia would join North Ossetia and become part of Russia. North Ossetia does not want to secede.

    From what I understand, Russia destroyed the very same military which invaded South Ossetia and leveled their capital along with several thousand citezens and Russian peace keepers.

    I dont remember Israel taking so much flak when their entire army was mobilized and invaded a "sovereign nation" over the capture of 2 soldiers last year.

    According to Human Rights......

    http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm

    Georgians indescriminately shooting at civilians hiding in basements and hospitals??

    Yea the Russians are the bad guys alright :rolleyes:
     
  20. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    We gave flak to Bush´s talk of saddam´s miracle weapons, we gave flak to israel, we give flak to georgia. If you get upset by our flak, because you don´t accept it because of your background, then you might be in the wrong place, to be honest. I´m sure there are lots of Russian sites where they love to talk about this operation.

    http://www.ww2f.com/free-fire-zone/16927-iraq-vs-israel.html
     

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