US death toll in Iraq war hits 4,000

My sergant in No.2 section has had two tours in Iraq, two in Afganistan in the last three years. Compared to his previous deployment on the Balkans it is utter crap. However the Balkans operations is going to Canterbury as we speak.

They all suffer from the same problem. Our senior commanders and politicians know s*d all about these operations. The latest Iraq campaign is particulary vicious, since during it's ill conceivement was put down to a sure victory with a lot less manpower than what actually went to war. And there lies the devil. They think in terms of the inital conflict. No thought on the aftermath at all.

So my chum did a lot of mine lifting during his first tour, they built schools and repaired bridges. But they also had to build high fences and walls around the schools since the crime was sky-high. Why? There is not enough soldiers to go around. The same goes for Afganistan and now the Balkans. Those who were in the Balkans just after the war will remeber that there was plenty of boots over there, but they were all active.

If we want to accomplish anything during our operations we need to have a lot more boots on the ground. You need to have soldiers in every corner to keep the peace until the area quiet down. When people can go to work without risking their life, they wil be less inclined to put on a vest of exposive and run into a checkpoint.

I don't think for a second that any member here is trying to be disrespectful to our troops, but when the politicians say that the sun is shining and all is well, they are full of it. They are not looking after our troops, they are deploying them paper thin and serving them a dog's breakfast compared to their shortage of men.

 

I shall only venture into this thread once - I think of the Arnhem veteran who said ; -

'If it goes on too long, it's going wrong. If it goes on even longer - it's going really wrong'.

 

I recall something I saw on television a year or two ago. It was an interview of a US soldier and some Iraqi government official or something. Asked what the biggest problem was about the war, they both said:

"Security".

Without security, you can't get anything done. Like what Jaeger said, you need more troops. So you build a school, a church, a hospital, a new police-station, you train some cops or whatever.

Nice.

All it takes is one idiot with dynamite strapped to his body to destroy all that. What you need is to beef up security so that once you've built the schools or hospitals or whatever, there's no opportunity for someone to blow them up. It's like building a town next to a river without first building a levee. All the hard work gets washed away after just one storm.

 

Hate to say this but we were invading Iran last year weren't we mate

Either way though, whatever that means, it doesn't mean we have been successful in Iraq. And I guess once again we have the question 'who is going to invade where and with what?' I mean its not like the US army isn't pretty well stretched out as it is.

 

Stefan

we are in Iran and in Syria already ..............

 

Just like we have been for decades, but we haven't invaded have we? There aren't Israeli jets screaming to targets deep in Iran are there?

And it still doesn't mean we have succeeded in Iraq.

 

There is a lot going on that the average person dos not know about

 

Hi Stefan, and greetings.

First of all, yessir, I sure did see that that info was from the State Department, and what I said about said statements I stand behind. The State Dept has been known to make some serious errors before, and will continue to make them-unfortunately. If politics was not such a backstabbing entity that it is, things just MIGHT not be so fouled up as they are now. I don't know if any of you Gentws were able-and or even knew about-a I think 2 hr. program that was aired on PBS TV station just last night. This program was called: "Bush's War." In it, they had interviews from many Current-and or former high Govt officials. I went into watching that program with an open mind. However, I saw that the filmmakers kept on sneaking in some liftise jabs at the President and all of his Men, by making snide comments that came from someone with a leftist PoV. All that aside-as I did not get to catch this program in it's entirity, I can't tell you with 100% accuracy, at what all went in.

Here is a thunmbnail sketch of what I thought enough to remember. This program was trying to show how and why the Bush Administration decided to go to war w/ Iraq. They talked about the sharings of informations from many sources including but not limitet to: the C.I.A. the F.B.I. Isreali Intelligence, German Intelligence, and I admit, I also learned that some sources they got their intel from, was dubious from the start. Some of the reported intel they got according to those who made this program, was almost as bad as getting intel/ from heresay-she said-he said-kinda of thing. Now you can also see, why I absolutely loathe-all politics and most politicians. According to said program, the push for war was mostly Dike Cheney's idea-which I thought was crap but listened to this program anyway. Also, according to this program, Cheney used and abused Colin Powell-someone who had all-kinds of good prestiege. According to this program, Colin Powell was duped on certain info-(by Cheney) but that this info was something he truely believed in and was making a strong case for. Well, according to this program, the majority of that info was he said she said and rumors crap-and also alot of this info came from German intelligence.

OK, now are we supposed to start blaming this war on the Germans? Because apparently, according to this program, we used the info that they gave to us-in order to go to war.

ALl this aside, i'll try to answer Stefans questions.

As you know that in all wars, there will unfortunately be many Civilian casualties. This is one reason why I think like I do. For example, if one country declares war on another country-who should their Soldiers and Civilians have to do the fighting? Why not get the politicians to do their OWN fighting? Those kiddnappings, rapes and murders have always been going on in Iraq BECAUSE it was and still is, a very unstable country. We have a country that borders our southern border called: Mexico--the same damn things happen there as well. This stuff is happening not too terribly far, from where I live.

In your miind, we have not achieved much. Nobody buy you are comparing the deaths of thousands of people to the numbers of cellphones subscribers so please do not get those numbers intertwined. The reason for me even posting about the number of cell phone subscribers is because that is a positive aspect as well as that it shows progress in Iraq-something that leftist libers do not want brought to the masses attention.

We have not had a great victory? I think in capturing the former Iraqi leader and most or all of his high level henchmen-that is yet another victory. I can't side with Bush when he said that the war is over-we can clearly see that it aint.

Take care and best regards-_C.

 

Hi Carl, as I understand that this is a sensitive subject for many, perhaps it is best that we tread water lightly.

I must however, respectfully ask 2 questions.

1. Would it be fair to assume that pretty much all of the accomplishments which you have pointed out above ( with the exception of cell phones ) were actually intact prior to the invasion?

2. Carl knowing then what you know now ( with all of the accomplishments and sacrifices ) would you have supported the war?

All the best

 

Hi Shangas, im only reporting the facts and figures that were forwarded to me by a veteran/friend who in turn, had that email sent to him ;-)) They are good stats and I like seeing something positive said about what we are doing in Iraq. I don't know if you know at just how involved I am in things concerning those who have served and those who are currently serving. Two years of my life, was totally devoted to my passion for doing things for veterans as well as what I am currently doing now-which is, to send some comfort (all at my expense) to anyone I can who is serving over there. My next door neighbor, has two Sons in the military-one is a Marine, the other is Army. Both have already served two tours in Iraq & Afghanistan. The Son who is a Marine, is about to be redeployed back to Iraq.

Like you posted about Bush claiming that the war was won-IMO, Bush was too early in making that claim and is in great error for doing so. I completely agree with your 2nd paragraph.

That is true that everybody does not know oabout the stats I posted, I only know about them thanks to getting an email from my friend-just last week. Everybody would know about these stats, if the news media would start reporting positive stories coming from Iraq. Personally, I feel that we need to find a solution to that mess, and then go back home-however long that is going to take?

I fully agree with the rest of what you say below. IF the media would get their heads out of their butts, and start reporting more and more positive things-along with the negative-then the masses might just start to believe that all of this was worth the effort?

Take care--C.

 

Well said Ike, Erich, Jaeger, Shangas, Martin. I really wish that some here-could have talked the the numbers of returning soldiers as I have had the pleasure of doing during my volunteering. Not one of them I talked with, said that the situation there was unwinnable. Most talked about their experiances in reestablishing law and order (in most areas) as well as the rebuilding programs that their units participated in. One complaint they had, was that they did not have enough sports equipment to be able to give to the kids there.

I talked with a Sergeant who was a huge Soccer fan. For Christmas (2006) instead of asking for something for himself, when approached by family members-instead, asked them to purchase 15 Soccer Balls to send to him so he could pass them out to kids in a school that he participated in the rebuilding of. I know another who was trying to teach Iraqi kids how to play Baseball.

I think these two examples, are positive examples-do you not?

 

There is alot going on that the average person should not know about.

If WWII were fought like the Iraqi War has been fought, I don't think that Americas involvement in that war, would have seen the D-Day Invasion at Normandy, or to have been involved in operations such as Market-Garden, the Battle of the Bulge etx--because of too many combat casualties, civilian deaths and destruction of too many buildings.

 

Now this is what is needed and not only covering the war in Iraq but news as a whole. I'm tired of hearing about what Britney trainwreck has done lately. How about news where good things are done or just stick to the facts news. No embelishment. I liked what Al Sharpton said to one news anchor about a statement he made, he said "read the whole comment" which is what the media does today, just read an excerpt which leaves the audience to speculate instead of reporting the whole facts to present an accurate picture. No speculation involved. Ah, it may be a dream but it sure sounded good.

 

Well said Ike, and thank you for saying it. I could not agree more ;-D

 

I really wish I could take all you of you over there to places unseen, yes we are making a difference, does the media which is quoted heavily in this thread give a rats ass, they didn't when we struggled in Nam and why should they now

all you guys did hear what the IDF AF did to Syria not long ago so I will not bore you with the details, it was covered ever so scantily but it did leak out to the point that the Syrain ambassador had to fes up in a UN hearing that they indeed had broken law but creating and establishing a running nuke facility .......ooooooooooops

most you you were not around when Nam occurred or were quite young and do not remember but what I read here is just what was yelled at me when we came home, the news was saved for me by a not so dear friend, who recorded much so I could witness the accuracy of media reporting in the truest sense.

and yes as mentioned a very serious and sensitive topic who wants loved ones over there, let alone yourself, I never asked, but I'll be darned I am going to support the forces over there in every aspect, that my friends is quite different than backing the policies~ administration that got us involved in the first place, and I can well imagine if Gore would of been pres............gag, that putz

 

It's my opinion E, that no matter what you , Ike or myself say, it's not going to be paid attention to - going in one ear and out the other. This is a case of no matter what answer we give, it is not good enough. Im through with this topic. (Jumps off the stage and turns and walks out the door.)

 

No one has quoted the media Erich, just the US State Department statistics for a single year in Iraq. I do agree however that backing friends, colleagues and family members who are actually over there is entirely different to backing the regime that put them there and keeps them there. You know as well as I do that I fully support our fighting soldiers, in my situation not to would be rediculous

Carl, it might be worth remembering that Iraq was more stable before we went in. Hussain was undoubtedly an evil dictator however the number of civilians murdered, kidnapped and displaced has gone up dramatically since we went in. The reason I compare the number of cell-phones to the number of casualties is to provide perspective, just like when you compare to casualties in other wars. I'll say it again, that list of achievements pales into insignificance when compared to the the deaths, kidnappings and refugees that have been made as a result of our presence.

I am aware of the positive things, funnily enough I have talked to quite a few soldiers and have been exposed to a lot of opinions of what goes on. Of course our guys help the kids when they can, of course they try to rebuild schools (under fire from mortars), of course they are trying to help. But that is nothing more than a drop in the ocean of blood and tears that is Iraq today. Sure we have achieved something, but compared to the number of people who are now dead, it isn't that much.

As for comparing Iraq to Mexico, what planet are you on? Seriously, when was the last time 70 government employees were kidnapped by terrorists on their way home from work in Mexico? When was the last time the Mexican police kidnapped innocent people and held them for ransom? People taken from the street on a day to day basis by insurgents? When was the last time over 500 soldiers were killed by insurgents in Mexico in a single year, not to mention the thousands of police? Seriously, crime and gang warfare doesn't compare to this.

All that said, glad this remains an adult and intelligent debate. Reminds me why I keep coming back

 

I mean no offence to any patriotic americans here, but do any of you americans believe you are doing the right thing or don't you think that becuase you are americans that you are being some what biased?

Its like saying my new born baby is perfect, that is clearly a bised opinion.

 

(Briefly coming out of retirement to reply to Tomcat)

Hi friend, I can't reply for everyone else but can for myself only ;-)) I do think we did the right thing, however, we have stumbled a few times along the way. One important thing, yes i was one of those who voted for Bush twice-but believe me, it was only to keep th likes of gore and kerry; out of the White House. Hope this answers your question satisfactory ;-))

Take care, best regards and, the Anzacs were great Soldiers that I am in awe of.

(I slowly turn and exit the room again.)

 

Makes sense and I'll respect that. To be honest unless you can show me something that justifies the mass deaths, kidnappings, corruption and general suffering going on in Iraq, you are probably right.