US Not entered War and The Germans assinated hitler mid 1943

Please, explain this. What 'crazy' decissions? Did the 'Bohemian corporal' took all these measures on his own and just because he wanted or because most of his staff advised him too and convinced him all was plausible?

How is it that the German General Staff could have done things better? The OKH showed its strategic and logistic incompetence in 1941 following the German tradition of 1914, 1916 and 1918… 'common sense' in German generals made them the best on the field, but mediocre at the HQ…

Besides, it is true. With Hitler gone, does all the evil of the III Reich desappears instantly? Do foot soldiers would stop believing themselves supermen? Do Germans stop hating Jews, Gypsies, 'lefties', etc., etc., etc.? NO, NO and NO.

This was indeed discussed previously: Who supports who?

 

Holy bazooka, Fried, what have you been reading, Ken Macksey's "Why Germans Lose At War", or what?

Right now I'm reading "Or What"

 

No, but I've been reading stuff about WWI… and we know that Von Moltke, Von Falkenhayn and Von Ludendorff pretty much screwed everything…

 

Please, explain this. What 'crazy' decissions? Did the 'Bohemian corporal' took all these measures on his own and just because he wanted or because most of his staff advised him too and convinced him all was plausible?
</font>[/QUOTE]Towards the end of the war, most of the wrong decisions were Hitler's personal choice, especially the deadly standstill commands.

 

I do believe that without Hitler, the Holocaust would have stopped. If for no other reason, for the one that it withdrew resources that were needed for the war.

 

Too easy. You would have to dismantle the entire SS and all it's structures and the Nazi party too.

Too many people involved and with interests in it. Also a very large machine in motion, from individual denunciators to civil police apparatus, occupies countries authorities and on and on to the top.

Too many people involded with deportation, perhaps not with Final Solution, but certainly too large and dispersed an organization to be brought to a halt.

 

And why would they stop using them as slave labour?

 

Fred:

An example of what I mean be crazy was his approach to the Eastern Front, specifically Stalingrad, and his insistance that it need to be taken and even after the German Army were attacked on the Romanian front refusing to let Paulus Withdraw. That kind of thing! My understanding from what I read, and I'm sure you can correct me here, is that Hitler took all the major decsisions on the Eastern Front not the High command. Is this not the case?

 

In '41 when anyone disagreed and/or wanted to retreat from Moscow they were fired [Rundstedt,vonBock,vonLeeb among others].When the Germans stopped a soviet counter-offensive that winter,Hitler saw himself correct about "standing ground" and from then on He managed the war. This Thread...mid '43....before or after Kursk?

 

Maybe not stop hating but anyway even Himmler demanded the ending of gassing jews etc in Autumn 1944 as he realized they had lost the war...he even gave an order to Eichmann to stop who refused to do so and sent all the Hungarian jews ( or almost ) to the camps.Himmer was quite upset that his orders weren´t followed even if this was quite the opoosite he had ordered before.



If Himmler can change his mind then why should the rest be any different really? If he was the "loyal one" as Hitler put it.

And I noticed a while ago ( quite late for me to do so really ) that all the Extermination camps are outside the Reich, or are they not? I don´t mean this takes the weight off their shoulders but main Final Solution was carried outside the Reich??

 

The 'deadly standstill commands' or Festungs strategy disrupted the Red Army's 1943 offensives in Army Group 'Centre''s sector.

Very true. And of course, considering how the III Reich worked, Hitler never gave such a thing as a direct order to build death camps and fill trains with people to take them there. And even less he supervised the process.

How could this machenery stop by his death?

Maverik:

Ultimate strategic decisions were indeed Hitler's. But he had an entire group of élite General Staff officers behind him and advising what to do and what not to do. So, every decision taken by the C.-in-C. was by advise of the OKW and some times of the OKH.

Stalingrad. Very good example to prove this.

The chief of staff of the OKL, colonel general Hans Jeschonnek assured Hitler that the Luftwaffe was able to sustain an airlift as it had done at Demiansk some months before. The troops there had resisted and had been relieved in the spring, disrupting the Soviet winter offensive. On whose orders? Hitler, who knew that an ill-planned retreat from Moscow could have degeneraed into another 1812.

So, Jeschonnek and Göring assure the Führer that the airlift is possible. Paulus states that his forces are not entirely able to perform prolonged mobile operations. Reinforcements are being brought from the western front and anywhere to form a relief force.

A breakthrough was a very risky affair. Paulus' forces were simply unnable to advance more than 20 km beyond the siege-perimeter. Soviet 'Operation 'ittle Saturn' was smashing the German-Allied lines in the north and Army Group 'A' was still in the Cauacasus fighting for its existance. Army Group 'Don' was not strong enough to reach Stalingrad, because the Panzer divisions in the West were not yet ready, because reinforcements were needed along the entire front —remember 'Operation Mars' in front of Moscow—, because 'Operation Little Saturn' was threatening Rostov and Von Manstein had to deploy his forces at the Mius to hold the vital link.

Once Hitler was aware of the situation then it became quite obvious that Paulus couldn't be rescued. Then he ordered a last stand to buy time: wear down the Soviet armies around Stalingrad and prevent them being deployed elsewhere, get time for the reinforcements from the west to arrive and get time to withdraw Army Group 'A' from the Caucasus.

Kursk is another good example. The main advocate for the attack was not Hitler, it was colonel general Kurt Zeitzler, chief of staff of the OKH.

 

Don´t forget though Friedrich that there were more persons that advised against such actions like Kursk and if I recall correctly the air supply of Stalingrad as well. If done in time they could have saved many men from Stalingrad but that would have been like admitting defeat and Hitler could not do that even if strategically that would have been the wisest choice. Kursk ( Zitadelle ) then again was the perfect trap for German forces created by Zhukov.


So it was Hitler HIMSELF who decided or let himself be lured into the wrong decision or one that was politically the only possible choice at the moment, I think.

[ 31. August 2004, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

 

Well i must say that the loss of the 6th army to "buy some time" is an insane idea.

 

Yer... But Hitlers was mad as a bicycle...

 

Indeed, Kai. But we could say the same about Mr. Churchill as well. He thought himself another Malborough and he insisted on helping Greece, holding Crete, etc., etc. He was exactly as Hitler in this way.

This statement has no validity until you explain why. I posted more than two paragraphs explaining bloody why.

Hitler did screw many things up. But he didn't do it alone. Keeping this myth will only help biased information as that of the German generals and Sir Basil Liddel-Hart to endure. The former just forgot about the Commisary and anti-Jewish orders they signed and encouraged and just blamed the 'Bohemian corporal' on most of their own flaws and mistakes. And the latter just made the generals' version the official one.

 

Well, the original idea was to buy time with 6 Army, not lose it in the process...

Unfortunately the Russians had a different plan.

 

Good idea, why are we always picking on poor old Gröfaz? Why not looking at Churchill's mistakes to break the monotony?

Alternatively we can try and discuss if Hitler did anything right

I agree. And there are also all the generals that the Americans took to write their own post-war manuals. I have a few.

Fried, try and get that Macksey's book I mentioned the other day.

 

Alright, Miguel. I will. I thought you were just being sarcastic…

 

Sarcastic? Me? Holy cow, that's a thought that had never entered my head!