USA Image problem?

TISO:
I still have my draft-card. I had to register for the draft on my 17th birthday. Of course I'm showing my age now...

Tim

 

Yes. There was conscription during the Vietnam war. He asked if the guys in his unit now were conscripts. There has been no draft in the US for 30 + years.

 

think more and more countries are moving away from drafting, here in Denmark we still draft to the military, but now people get drafted for 4 months of basic training, then they can volunter and get a longer military traning (cant remember how long, think its 8 months plus some extra months if he is send out on a international mission) so you can say that we now have a semi-professionel army (when I serverd it was before it got changed, I was drafted for 10 months and then I was in the peacetime mobilisation force that would be called up in case of attack on our kingdom)

USA have a problem when it come to its image, some can be that there dont seem to be a solution in Iraq at the moment, when you see images of people in Iraq getting killed everyday (and yes I know its not the US army that run around and kill iraqis, but its muslims killing muslims) then you get the impression that US policy in Iraq have failed

 

wow..i like that idea , drafted for 4 months basic training ..you have your entire male population on standby in case of need...that seems to make good sense with some required remedial training ect a huge reserve of manpower...though i hate to say it the iraq mission is an exersise in futility as far as i can see ....and no easy way out either

 

not the entier male population (there are those who cant serv because of medical conditions) and then some dont want to because of their believes (political, religous etc.) and the 4 months training is hardly enough to use in case of attack on Denmark, but they get the idea of the life in the army and learn some skills (military, first aid and to be able to assiste in case of major disagers) and then they can join the proffesionel part of the army and get the real training, but Im not completly sure on how it works, as said I served before they changed it

 

Here in Serbia,we got 2 type of drafts.
1.U go in regular army,for 6 month trainig,and it is it.
2. U go in civilian army,u work 9 month in public community services (hospitals,etc) in ur own city on 8h working time.

I was 9 Month in army with all kainds of training,but it mean notthing till u actualy see combat,it is far diferent then a drill.

 

i think serbia has a good and senseble draft ,,many young people in america could do with a little public service and or military hardship ...and no army is ever combat seasoned until it is in combat no matter how rigorous the training regimen...

 

Old system i went trough was 7 months of service in military or as conciensus objector in hospital (or something to this effect) and then automatic compulsory service with reserves or cilivil protection (older or specialists).

Now we have professional army. One can still go for voluntary military service (basic training of 3 months) and then voluntary reserve (7 year contract). Us that served our 7 months (or previous 12 months in JNA) in the military can go directly into voluntary reserves (on 5 year contract).
Voluntary reserve ussualy has 21+ days of service per year. Normaly it is 3 longer weekends (from thursday-sunday) and at least 1 whole week on the field excercises (ussualy in the fall).
Gallery of our brother 3.rd platoon (i'm in 2.nd platoon but we still don't have our website up) in 2.nd company of 123.GORB (mountain battalion) from last field excercise (9 days of which 8 in the field) on Poček training grounds:
http://home.amis.net/brinarb/Album/index.html
(pic's are in galeries named by their authors)

 

The way I see it if the state can force it's citizens to give up their freedom, even their life, in oder to further the ends of the elected leaders then citizens become slaves to the state.
I view the state as my servant and not my master and attempts to reverse those roles is an issue worth fighting over.

 

Basicly it about your debt to your country. Country has obligation to protect you against foreign invaders (army), against criminals (police) it has to take care for you if you are incapable to do so yourself (sickness, age...)... It is only correct to return the debt in one way or another. We were basily all reluctant to go, but it was seen as a duty that had to be done. In light of recent events (last 100 years) it is better to at least know what to do in emergency (war).

If US were overrun and burned to the ground so many times as we were in last 150 years you can bet you would also have similar phylosophy.

It's also great source of stories over a beer or two :lol: (can be a drag for the ones that weren't in the army) Up until the change it was also seen as sign of growing up (in primitive societities it would be called iniciation ritual). Seriously. Poeple did treat you a bit differently. And besides it would be a bit difficoult to get a permanent job if you still had to go into the army as employers are not exactly happy to know that after they train you, you'll go away for some time (and they would be obliged to guarantie you your job back). Besides it a good way to beat some discipline and order into spoiled brats (also seen as good point from employers viewpoint).
It's also good experiance from personal point as you meet poeple from different parts of society that you would normaly not meet and you are equal and in the same shit.
There is a much truth in verse: "A u vojsci sam stekao druga do groba i hroničnu upalu zgloba.." (Sinnisa will know the song :smok: ) in eng.: "And in the army i met a comerade to the grave and croinical inflamation of a joint". After years i'm still in contact with some of my comerades from when we were serving our "time" together.

 

"Svirajte mi jesen stize dunjo moja" by Djordje Balasevic,love that song.Completly true about army.Actualy,ur no man if u dot go trought that.Some ppl cryed in army,cant handle it,after some time they realise that they must depend on themselfs,and make progress in their grown up process.Eventualy,alot friendships,and nice memories left from military days,and "vojnicke price" (military storyes) last many years after services.

But for me,moust fan was in basic infantry training in Valjevo :bang:

Here some PIC from my basic training (mostly on rest time)

 

Yeah, all the male bonding is a great thing, I guess, if that is what you want.
Personally I don't subcribe to beating discipline into anyone, spoiled brats or otherwise. The fact that you do though tells us a bit about where you are coming from psychologically and philosophically.
I don't really like to be lectured to by anyone about this, especially conscripts, since I volunteered to serve and during a bitter war to boot.

I don't see a thing wrong with volunteering to defend one's country. I do have a problem with being compelled to defend your country. If your people don't value it enough to defend it perhaps it should be taken over by others who might do a better job.

I don't owe my country a debt that must be paid with my life, not unless I choose to risk my life in it's defence or in the furtherance of the leadership's policy. As I have stated many times I believe, (and I'm not alone in this) that the state is my servant and not my master.
My servant does not order me, on pain of imprisonment, to sacrifice my life or liberty in order to preserve the state.
I realize such notions are foreign and strange to some who have been brought up in vastly different cultures. However, a culture that advocates slavery in any form is not one I care to emulate.

 

!!!!! SITNO 000!!!!!
ARRGH. Been a James Bond for a day (007 days remainig :smok: ) and formula 1 (001)

Grieg as i said. If your country wold have been burned to the ground your phylosophy would be different. It's all in perception. What is your country? Is it bunch of overpaid idiots who don't know left from right foot (99,9% of all politicians fall into this category) or is it your family (wife, kid, mother, father...)? Your phylosophy is OK when most wars your country is fighting are fought on other continents for neboulous reasons (way of life and BS like that), but is very bad if someone invades your country and enslaves your family.


BTW Sinissa
Compare your camouflage pattern with ours:
(comarades from brotherly 3.rd platoon in reserves)

Damn! I can't find album with my "time" photos. Pa da me visiš sa irokezom

 

I'm not sure if you are missing the point by design or truly don't understand what I'm saying. I think people should want to defend their country and their way of life. If they don't want to it may very well be that it isn't something worth defending. In which case the state has no business taking away the liberty and the lives of it's citizens in order to defend a state that they don't value.
Defending my immediate family is a different thing entirely. There are few real pacifists in this world and even fewer when it comes to defending their family. In my country there has never been much of a shortage of volunteers when we have been attacked or seriously threatened. If you cannot round up enough volunteers to defend your country against direct attack then it isn't wortn saving.
You cannot say what my philosophy would be in some alternate history any more than you can say what you would think or do in some other situation that you have never been in.

 

we only drafted because we are a small country and Russia and Poland are not far away, which mean that we would had been some of the first to take the attack from USSR if it would had come duing the cold war and when it come to some of the other servers provided by the stat, well, we have a high tax rate so we pay for it


(btw. I think the danish camo pattern is much more cool, but Im also danish so jugde for you self: http://www.henrikc.dk/camouflage/details.asp?autono=1
http://www.henrikc.dk/camouflage/catego ... ory=Europe)

 

Grieg i understand what you want to say, but is difficoult to compare a country with 2 million in central europe in ex. Yugoslavia with US. Every war we fought in last 1000 years here was war for survival (pure physical) of the nation so it is understandable to have completley different ideas about serving in military.

Jens did US paid royalties for the patern= I only ment with comparison of Serbian and Slovene patterns that they are practicaly indentical. Both are variation of late JNA patern.

 

grieg ...in times of real war strain ,civil war, ww2 korea ,viet nam a voluntary army wont hack it ,if the counry had to relie only on the good faith of a minority willing to enlist in wartime it would come up way short..their arent enough standup guys like you , in america to fill out a real wartime army when were like in ww2 loseing not 3000 men over 4 years but in real war like ww2 we lose that many in a bad week...i think the draft ,like the serbs or slovinians have makes good sense ..a basic training period and then some weekend time like our national gaurd ...young people could go military or some type of wpa or peace corps stint ,it would be good for our military to have a manpower resevour and also like tiso says their are some young americans that really need a little reality checkup time ...every kid i ever knew who went off to serve a stint in whatever branch ,always .imo , came back a better man for it teamwork ,leadership ,discipline, fitness...these things are sometimes unknown concepts in modern american kids

 

Majorwoody, don't take this the wrong way but what you are saying misses the point entirely as far as I'm concerned. I'l agree that, provided it doesn't kill or maim them, military service often helps young people to develop a sense of responsibility and instills discipline. The question is, in my mind, at what cost?
A free person should be able to choose the direction and purpose of his own life, else he isn't really free. When a young person voluntaily enlists and exposes him or herself to harsh conditions and rigid discipline and succeeds then they have a sense of accomplishment and may gain much from the experience. The physical training alone may make them healthier people.
Do you think that the plantation slave forced to labor in the cotton fields and enduring similar harsh conditions should be grateful to the master and overseer despite the beneficial effects of the exercise and hard work?

As to the defense of one's country aspect of your argument I can only repeat what I have said in previous posts. A country, a society, that isn't valued enough by it's own citizens that they would be willing to defend it does not deserve to be defended by essentially forcing it's reluctant citizens into battle at gunpoint.
It must be apparent that such a departure of views as I have with many people here on this issue represents a fundamental difference in our philosophical outlook on life that is so basic that it neither one of us is likely to change that view based on this debate.
Recognizing that I nonetheless desire to present a different view so that maybe some young people who may encounter this debate may be exposed to a different outlook and especially one coming from someone who not only volunteered to serve but belonged to a family where every male member enlisted and served from WW II through Vietnam.

Why do I consider that significant? Because all to often debate, in this country at least, becomes polarized and breaks down along certain Right /Left, old/young, military/non military, secular/religious lines.
I have always encouraged my sons to be free thinkers and to reason for themselves rather than blindly accept what they are told.
I hope that someday such a view will be encouraged rather than viewed with suspicion by established society.
It seems these days that one is considered a radical revolutionary if they take seriously principles established by the founding fathers of our country
as in the Jeffersonian dictum that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed.

We will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

 

U ppl hawe luck,u got no wars on ur mainland.ATM,need for soldiers in not more then US had,but if something go wron by US,they will draft all what can walk (somethime like vietnam vas,but imagine larger scale),and if i had to go in war,i will like to know atleast basic things how to stay alive and use safely for me and my friends weapon.If u dont wanna to use weapon,u hawe ewry right to refuse it.In old drafting system u had choice to refuse to carry weapon,but still,u had to be in military object on some otther duties (kitchen,etc) in this drafting system,u can do community work,what is extremly good.

In Serbian army,basic is not how to shot betther,and kill more,basic training is mainly how to stay alive.


TISO

I hawe alot more this army PIC,i carryed cheap camera (cost me whole 4 euros,basicly piece of plastic) and i shooted alot good PIC I still keep my old "kalendar" (idk english word) when i counted days till day 000.About uniforms,serbian M-93 is derivat from JNA M-89 uniform,and yes,they look alot :lol: we developed new uniform for future,look the PIC
http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00235/en_index.php

Jens,danes uniform look like digital uniform (notthing new germans used it in WWII) but provide higher camuflage then standard one.

 

the danish camo pattern is not a digital one, its from the late 1970s, the pattern was chosen because its one of the best pattern around, the colours were chosen out from analysing the colours there is in the danish nature

and yes it is basicly the same pattern that SS used duing ww2, but it dont make it more poorly, its a good pattern that work, even the germans know that because they use the almost same but with other colours

I got drafted 6 months after my 18th birthday, but only got to serve efter I had turn 20 because I had to be done with school, I served 10 months and trained to defend danish territories and the danish stat which I gladly will do if it ever should come to that (hopefully it will never come to that)