USA Image problem?

Are you kidding, Singapore's got our northern flank convered

Another good thing about conscription is that it gives people jobs, so if theres a real need for employment it might be a better solution

Still, having a bigger army always costs more than having a smaller one... Unless training a conscript is sufficiently cheaper than training a professional... Again, depends on the country

 

Northern Flank?

Haha..i thought it was covered by you guys?

 

You don't really need to tell me how democratic voting works. I have voted in every presidential election since Nixon vs. McGovern (1972).
I was referring to throwing out the President by democratic means.
It is an unusual occurrence to oust an incumbent president. Your theory regarding the slim chance of Bush being elected in a country that allows forced conscription doesn't hold water. We had conscription in this country during the times that JKF was elected and he was far more adventurous militarily speaking than Bush. Though he was killed before he came up for reelection he remained popular.
The same might be said about Nixon and indeed about Clinton who liked to meddle in even more obscure places with dubious connections to US national interests.

 

JFK would've lived I think he probably would've turned out alot worse then he is precieved because hes the one that started to send equipment to Vietnam.....

 

yes greig ,but clinton only bombed places when it was absolutly required for the preservation of white house security ...ie when a young woman would come foward and accuse the president of say...wagging "IT" at her while he is interviewing her for a job ...well next thing you know its ...HEY FOLKS !!!...quick ,LOOK OVER THERE WE JUST BOMBED SUDAN ! ...you know ...security

 

the usa does not need compulsary military training to defend our borders , its true ...however it seems we are often sent to defend OTHER peoples borders ,im thinkin not of a 3 year hitch but more like a year of basic infantry ,artillery ,crewed weapon training, ....roel ,guys like you would remain in universty and do officer type training rotc stuff arround your course work ,,felons , btw ,are already prohibeted from the military, if every male had to do this for ever more it would be a benifit to the country and would be mostly beneficial to those young men as well...imo if your dad did it ,you did it and your boys are going to do it ...its not an inequity ..those who are , because of religious reasons unable to learn combat skills could do a 2 year streatch teaching or construction in the barrios ,gehttos or whatever in peace corps kinda stuff ..employers would recieve a better grade of raw material for their work force..former soldiers are more punctual ,respectful and resourceful and oh so grateful to be back in the civillian world...

 

I have to agree with Woody again...i can't wait to get back my Civilian Pink Identification Card

 

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Woody said " ,felons , btw ,are already prohibeted from the military,"


followinfg an article on the 14 / 02 in the NYtimes

due to a slight shortage of congressmen son's and the lack of ivy league volunteers , the U.S. armed forces have slightly eased up on the felon front ,

waiver for previous conviction has risen by 65% in the last two years ,
I for one wholeheartedly agreed
every decent , slightly tarnished individual should be given a chance to get a bullet between the eyes , not just the best among the boys
equal oportunity as I see it
some of the best soldiers in history had idiosyncracies wich would have be frowned upon in civilan life,
in irak ,as long as the morale and discipline hold there should be few problems

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true jeag ..some of the best battle field soldiers are not so spit shine and by the book garrison troops ,moh winnir frank luke was faceing a courts marshal for insubordination when he went awol and blasted a bunch of hun balloons ,an idf fighter who was considered a useless soldier at camp went berserk with laws tubes against syrian tanks in yom kippor war time after time while his buddies hid in a bunker...look at the french for . legion , historicaly famous for being filled with fugatives from the law...

 

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indeed ,
there was this old legend of the 1920th
When a lad got in hot water , the judge giving him the choice , reformation school or the marines

Back on the topic , the image problem of the good oll U.S.of A. is pretty much that , a image , vision thing
for the europeens ,canadians and aussies , it sometimes looks like the U.S. politicians are trying to imitate a movie or a TV serie , in the case of georges
definitly " independance day "
it's also totally freaky for societies who spent hundred of years kicking the priest and militarists out of schools to have tiny schoolkids giving the pledge to the flag and god in class ,
very brainwash high .

all politic is for domestic purpose , the media grandstanding for the evening news is fine , but it has expanded to diplomacy .
now U.S. diplomacy is little more than a serie of press release ,
I read the department of state daily briefings , its pretty sad
too often a question get answered with "
I'll have to check....I presume....I'll get back to you on this "
the U.S. has always seen foreign policy as a poker game , bluffing is part of it , so is striking an attitude of , I'm mad and can barely control myself ,
very macho , very over the top .

if its credible it can give good results but the rest of the world see it as bullying ,
too often the victim of military strike is a fouth rate country with a fourth rate dictator , usually ex best friend ,
hardly a credit to U.S. arms

The U.S. has many true friends
but today politicians rubbish and insult some for being less that enthousiast to toe the line and prefer , in the words of the ex leader of the labor party
" the company of a conga line of suckholes "
It is believed widely that the american democracy has the attention span of a chicken ,its medias manipulated by a fews barons who manufacture consent out of generated popular ignorance .

it is certain that america want sincerely to do good ,
some of her critics are double faced lying bastards or fools
it remain that her actions and her words generate , rougly since president reagan , an increasing amount of distrust


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..jeag all diplomacy has always been a way to achieve ones national intrests without going to war ,carrot and stick , a poker game from the days of athens and sparta......the usa has never attacked anyone in a hundred years unless it or its allies were attacked first or because of popular outrage against thuggish genocide ...in the cold war we tried to contain communist expansion and of course have allied ourselves with less than savory regimes to this end ..... ie we knew stalin was a thug but while he was killing nazis he was our thug ...we have attacked third world countries when they have supported terroist attacks on us ...when arabs killed 3000 americans , should we have attacked france or brazil or mabey north korea... ? did we help sadam kill iranians ,you betcha , fek the ayatolla in the arsaholla ....carter was a helpless jellyfish ..reagans the one that tore down the berlin wall , not gorby ...and there wasent any intellegence service anywhere in the world that didnt think sadam was hideing wmds ...if he hadnt been so cute with the weapons inspectors he would still be breaking shinbones in iraq today ..the dumb sht...we didnt invade poland or finland or south korea ...hell if the japs hadnt bombed pearl harbor fdr never woulda been able to attack the nazis ...half of america wanted no part of any more european misadventures ...the end of ww2 found france and the uk broke and all of europe a shambles . we were put in the cold war drivers seat by default...and unfortunately for us ,we are still there...its a thankless and expensive seat and really it would be kool if someone else could ,, you know ,,,mind the wheel for a while...

 

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Woody , I read your post approve and sympathise with much of what ,I believe , you are saying ,
my point is that the democratic american model has since the eighties and the irannians hostage crisis ,lurched toward the glorification of the armed forces and the use of force as a main tenet of the republic pride .
roosevelt ,marshall , eisenhover and nixon would have been appaled at such development all of them understood the limitations of extreme violence and its perverse consequences

I believe that the U.S.republic would be well served by its leaders to have a more sober appreciation of the limitation of the use of force .

on the point of the sources of information ,as far as I can see and read as of now
it is pretty sad that "U.S.A. today" has better articles than some broadsheets like the washington post
the TV news channels are superficials and give a stunted vision of the world ,
people like rush limbaugh or robertson are fraudulent prophets appealing to the mean side of men ,

my personnal favorite , and he write well !

http://www.theamericancause.org/patarchives.htm

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jeag as an american and an old army brat that spent his entire childhood liveing on army posts the world over ..i can assure you that the us military was much more glorified and the service was universally accepted as a normal, moral and rightious through my childhood ...up until about 68 when the vietnam counter culture thing arrived , after that time the us military was ignored ,villafied and or made fun of ...in print on tv in films something in america broke and its never been the same since.... and the public ,the media and hollywood have never treated the us military with the same respect really ever again ..us soldiers post viet nam were insulted ,ignored .even assaulted ...here in the usa...as a 15 year old in 70 ,i was bewildered and angered at my stupid shallow empty headed countrymen who would blame returning soldiers often draftees for the war that had become unhip ..like an e3 retuning from cu chi had any say in the wars prosecution ...it makes me bitter to this day...wether the war was right or wrong ..it was bullshit to put any blame on a returning bewildered 23 year old sgt ..who just spent a year in harms way... ...if you watch any hollywood movies released prior to 68 you will see mabey some bad officer or troop portrayed ,but never the military itself as a whole ...it isnt until desert storm in 91 that this nasty post vietnam military bashing went away...but still the uniform support pre 68 is gone forever all war movies must show the horror ,fubars ,futility ect ad nauseum ...anyway i think us leaders have used force very sparingly and with great forthought between viet nam hang overs and cold war sweats about what the russkis might do there was lebanon ,grenada ,panama ,somalia ,bosnia ,iraq 1 and 2 ...where is it you think a former president would be appalled.?....... all of these are extreme pissant actions compared to the butchers bill handed the leader you cite in their own times ...imo none of these leaders of old would bat an eye at any of these actions nor second guess the actions of the sitting presidents...we have 3000 kia in 4 years ? fdr ate that much in a week ,nixon in a bad month or two....we havent been in a real war since nixon ....more soldiers die in peace time car crashes than have been killed in any of these actions as for arabs dieing ...what till you see the numbers being killed AFTER we oull out...

 

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hi woody , o. k. we are getting somewhere , the fracture you rightly pointed out is the return from vietnam ,
before that time the army was the nation , it then got repudiated and made to wear the blame for its sins ( deservedly ) but also for for everyone else ,
the headquarters as usual, retired in their ivory tower ,
normal joes who live with real people had to shoulder everyone else rubbish , the most vocal critics being the most foolish
there was a severe budgetary cut and an economic crisis , the stagflation years , carter was made to look like a fool , something he wasn't
reagan came with a better financial climate , he talked up the armed forces and rebuild them ,
the fools changed side and were now pretending that the journalists had lost the war , instead of the politicians and generals
first gulf was a text book example of a success
collin powell called it the powell doctrine , it should be called common sense doctrine
from there , in the hands of lesser men there was this temptation to go for a remake , to use armed force as a public management exercice ,
to pump the military face of the U.S. while its industrial face is struggling
not having policies only spin ,
when I see the two highest personnages of the republic , both certified chickens
wrap themselves in the flag , it make me thinks at what is wrapped around the flag near the frontline.

the troops will come home , most of them , and become normal joes , to answers the call next time around because it's what normal joes do for their country,
there will be fools , there always will ,
officers will invent even more extravagant jargon and politicians will start wars ,
they always do




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well ..ok nobody ,lost the war ...the us army was never ever defeated in the field ..no corrigadore no dien phen poop ...even the much reported tet offensive was a slaughter of v.c. cadre that was never recovered...america ,at home got sick of the war ...like our current war ,it was an endless quagmire and no matter how many slopeheads (wink) we killed there were always gonna be more on the way ..the arvn ,south vn people fekked arround haphazardly till the us got tired and left ..its hard to blame even them they had been at war for some 25 years already when we got there..us draftees and company comanders got to the pouint where only going home mattered ...westmorelands one year hitch was in response to the endless combat of ww2 infantry men in eto ..one year baby ! goin home...pols, generals,troops ..no one really to blame a failed experiment ..firepower and hi tech dos not gaurentee victory ...not against people who are super motivated ..only a total war of annihalation a la attilla ,timurlink kind of policy can prevail imo ...and it aint gonna happen ....bush ,btw was a air gaurd jet fighter pilot based on defending us airspace from arctic intruders 360 hrs in a hand me down a g jet is not cowardice it is actuarelly way more dangerous than most military ground jobs in viet nam ...a simple fact of deaths per thousands... my dads pa ag squad in late 40s had some 8 outta 15 pilots killed in crashes over 10 years , all in peacetime! ...hardley what could be called a buncha pusseys eh?

 

We should start a vietnam thread and watch the fur fly




I agree on the tet and little tet being the death of the the vietcong ,
the politics of the vietcong politburo wanted a make or break decision , they got it , it was break
giap thought it was a stupid idea but the southerners wanted it ,
he picked up the pieces afterward and got all classic with armor and artillery .
it still made the news stateside with walter crondike asking what was going on over there , the sh..t hit the fan , the light at the end of the tunnel was looking like a sick joke after watching pictures of the hue citadel
the pentagon didn't had a clue , they fought an insurgency as a battle ,
establishing new records for the weigh of ordonnance per weigh of opponents
like ten tons per pound
the one year on duty rule made soldiers useless for the first and last two months , the knowledge wasn't circulating , the officers were too often kids
out of the college training program .
the problem with dick cheyney and george W. bush is that they had influence and could not even be bothered to shown up there , not even for a week !


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as cub reporters for yale student reveiw ? bush was a full time college kid ...such personages are not allowed to just show up in viet nam , jeag what kind of influence is it that you think a preppy clean cut class president from yale was going to have in a war zone ...not that he could get a visa ,mind you ,jeag.....if we could travell back to gwbush.s alma mater in 1968 and we said to the pimple faced crowd in w,s dorm room ...hey fellas SCREW DAYTONA BEACH FOR SPRING BREAK THIS YEAR !!! we dont need endless beer keg partys and lottsa oh so sweet drunkin lil coeds in bikinis ....i know ...lets go to viet nam this easter break ...its their tet celebration ..dripping mind numbing heat and humidity , venemous snakes , malaria ,punji stakes ,angry lil slopes with ak47s IT WILL BE FUN CMON DUDES!!!.......what do ya say ...we will use our pimple faced ,snot nosed ,ivey leaugue influence and straighten out those silly hard bitten division commanders over there ....can you imagine the vacent stares we would recieve lol ....my theory is that very few would want to sign up ...even if we told young W ..look dude your gonna be president some day ,you should really go ...i suspect jeag , he might use his power as class president and scull and bones frat stud.... to have our silly asses thrown down a steep set of concrete stairs ....with a swift punch or two thrown in ..ive been to some fraternity parties ...those young dudes brook no nonsense and they are not stupid ....drunk mabey ...

 

Amen to that , the boys in nam would wholeheartedly agree ,
daytona beach , beer and bikinis , to refuse would be downright perverted :smok:

my beef is not with the past , it's with the spectacle of shonky salesmen,
flogging patriotism to people who have plenty from some who don't have so much .
I believe in the law of decreasing honesty as one rise on the social ladder
people at the bottom start dumb and honest to end high up neither .

the only exception to the rule is that not all people at the bottom are dumb


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Why should our political leaders need to be war veterans in order to understand war and conflict? There aren't many war veterans on internet forums yet there are more war experts per square foot than you can shake a stick at (to mix a few metaphors).
As Woody correctly pointed out the duty that GWB was performing in the states was statistically more hazardous than serving in Vietnam in all but an infantry unit ( which only account for about 10% of Vietnam veterans)

It wasn't only the Ivy League silver spoon crowd that didn't enlist to serve in Vietnam. The vast majority of American youth of that era did not serve in that conflict. Similar to the situation today with Iraq and Afghanistan. As large as those conflicts have become and as much attention as they (rightly) receive the number of men actually fighting over there represents only a small percentage of Americans.

To be fair, all politicians can be somewhat accurately described as "shonky salesmen" no matter the office (or country). It is part of human nature. We put them in power but should always retain a healthy skepticism about the motives and actions of politicians (and cops).

 

Dammit Grieg, stop doing that! Stop writing posts that I agree with! It's bad for my image...