various discussions on Islam

ah ..libyia ,syria,iran ,afganistan,sudan ..iran is being threatened because they are building nukes and say that they intend to use them forthwith...( i know smeg ,you feel they are just kidding arround ,but some (silly ,misguided ) people think they MIGHT BE serious ) if the western media made up munich ,rome ,lockerby ,madrid , 911 ect ... they have done a wonderful job with special effects (all of that was just anti muslim propeganda ?? really ? ,i feel so foolish now )...you feel hitler ,the kkk and the hutus were actually zealous christians makeing war on non christians ,is that it ,really? so i guess we should all be afraid of hindi terrorists and stop worrieing about muslim terrorists since they are merely a fabrication of the zionist controlled western media ...thank you smeg ,i feel much safer already now that ive removed my giant pointed WHITE hood which was plainly blinding me to the TRUTH...young mormons rideing bicycles ,thats the real threat (just what do they carrie in those backpacks anyway ?) or jerry falwells legions of suicide bombers ,the 700 club? christian terrorists are all arround us !!!..and the press is so blind ,god help us....

 

ah don't be silly
Terrorists aren't killing Yanks & Westerners because the Koran tells them to... They are killing them for a number of political reasons, including but not necessarily limited to America having REALLY jerked around the Mujahidin in Afghanistan... By sitting perfectly happily cashing in on arms deals in the Iran/Iraq war, yet policing worthless incursions in Libya and Iran... And have generally been acting as if they own the Middle East since 1945... And lastly because there are 380,000 heavily armed soldiers policing plodding around Iraq and Afghanistan (for the umpteenth time), cutting up the infastructure for reasons which 'unfortunately' turned out to be incorrect. Honestly Woody I ask you, what reason for killing is more justified than an invasion of your country? Religion has NOTHING to do with it, it just so happens that the small collection of countries which America has chosen to bully are all Islamic. Theres No WMD's Whoops silly us! Still haven't caught Osama yet have we? Butterfingers! OMG They have three plutonium rods! Ban the Hijab, who knows what dangerous fabrics it contains? Any old excuse will do wont it? Because they're just MUSLIMS after all...

 

actually the koran does tell them to subjigate or kill infidals where ever and whenever it is practicable ..the hindu kush is a trail into afgainstan (the northwest territories of rudyard kiplings day) where hindus taken as slaves died in such great numbers while in transit that the trail was littered with their bones ..kush means death ,,the coastal areas of italy became unihabitable durring the time of the corsairs who took slaves even from english villages and everywhere else where christian infidels could be taken ..serbian peasants paid a head tax with their children ,boys to become jannisarries ,girls to the sex slave block ..an american envoy in paris buttonholed an algerian envoy and asked "why doe you attack our ships and kill or enslave our crews in the med , what have we done to you ?...the muslim replied "sorry its nothing personal ,our religion condones and commands in fact the takeing of infidal property and slaves ..you can pay us protection money (like the brits and french ) and we will let you pass ...the barbary wars followed and provided a verse of the usmc song ...jihad has gone on since the birth of islam and is not about politics or economics ..were it not for el cid ,martel and the polish warlord jon ,all of europe would have been under islamic rule ..as it is it will be soon enough by simple demographics ..the word islam means to submit ..and they mean everyone ..sooner or later ...could the arab world become more like turkey ?..sure , or mabey turkey will become like iran ,whos to say...

 

Did you read that in a magazine?

The amount of driblle you get in the media is astounding...Severa thousand cubic litres of it in fact... The Islamic 'threat' currently consists of a handful of panicked, poorly armed rebels on the run in Pakistan, but the way they present it you'd expect Iranian jackboots to be crunching their way down the streets of DC by next week! No Islamic nation has posed a serious threat to any western state since the 16th century, the industrial revolution left them dead in the water as far as military power went... But that doesn't make a good story, we want to hear about TERROR!

Fact is the US and NATO have done a splendid job weeding out the small collection of psychopaths responsible for 9/11, Invading Iraq might have been a tad disproportional, but how many terrorist attacks on US soil have there been since 9/11? NONE! Due to the sterling work of the armed forces, America is once again safe, but the f***ing NEWS doesn't want you to think that because stories abot safety don't make money... Once again fatsos like Michael Moore are undermining US military integrity by playing on the minor mistakes of the armed forces, and making comparisons to Vietnam (which the media also lost btw), and the public is gobbling it up like gooseberries...

And if its bones and bodybags over the course of a few centuries that you measure things by, I think you'll find that Christians have an equally impressive 'score'... I'm sure a reasonable & egaltarian gentleman such as yourself wouldn't dream of omitting any relevant facts from your analasys , so its probably best to remember that in the Crusades of the mediaeval times the Saracens were noted for their chivalry in battle, and scholarly talents, most notably Saladin... He offered his captors what their Christian invaders did not, life and imprisonment, and the possibility of release... As oposed to the guaranteed torture and beheadings which the Christians conducted... Saladin is famous for the generosity showed to his prisoners

Doesn't sound much like the baby-munchin' jihadists you described to me Woody... Read about the damn Koran and you'll find it actually strictly prohibits the killing of non-combatants, women, children and the eldery... Maybe that magazine of yours confused it with Bushido? Wouldn't suprise me, journalists being what they are these days... God I despise their incompetance! :bang:

 

well ..im glad to hear that the koran prohibits the killing of civilians ....that would explain why the plo ,hamas ,hezbolla,taliban and all muslim military forces are ever so careful about going after only military targets ..those darn western media types are always getting things so mixed up ..grrr .it really makes me so mad...

 

All of those examples you listed are political organisations first and foremost... They commit crimes with a POLITICAL objective (i.e. to eradicate Israel), not a religious one, though one might easily confuse the two... The fact that they follow Islam is no more relevant than the color of their hair, as they obviously actively disobey the Koran... They do not kill in accordance with the Koran any more than McVeigh killed in accordance with the Bible...

Really though, I am truly as amazed as you that anyone could act without the blessing of a 2000 year old book... Its positively unheard of!!!

 

why is it that israel must be eradicated, politics you figure? ? is it because they are the regions sole democracy ? because they grow really big oranges , is it their little beanies they wear on the back of their heads ,the blue and white flag? no NO NO ..if its all about politics ,it must be the democracy thing ,the arabs MUST just hate it when people vote ,if the israelies start up a monarchy or dictatorship the arabs will leave them in peace ..they need another king david ,its so simple ,elect a perminant king and the wars will stop !! finally a solution ..end the political friction and peace will follow ..why has this easy fix not been tried before..and here i thought the jews were supposed to be so smart...queen golda ,king moshe ,king ben gurien ...is that so hard?

 

Gentlemen, I think that now would be an excellent time for both of you to go to your neutral corners. The conversation is taking a very unpleasant turn, and it might be just as well if the matter were dropped.

 

Yes, you're right casselbury... Sorry about the attitutde woody, come to think of it, I'm sure that if it was MY country that had been attacked I'd think a whole lot differently...

But it hasn't been, so I don't

In truth I always enjoy yakking on with you lot

 

yes ...imagine what it must be like for the wretched israelies who have been getting attacked on a monthly or weekly basis for the last 60 years simply for the crime of not haveing the same religion as their neighbors ..i myself am an agnostic and frankly , i feel the world wouild be a better place if there were no religions ..i was sorta raised as a roman catholic ,learned some sympathy for the jews after exposure to the pogroms and holocaust , and was always pretty much ambivilant about the muslims ,till recently ..i find all religious bigotry and zelotry offensive and essentially mindless ..what is confusing is the number of otherwise perfectly rational adults here and outside this forum who will argue that christian or jewish or hindu zealots are as bigoted and or dangerous as todays muslim zealots ..this is nonsense and easy to correctly determine ,google up muslim terror attacks (on civillians only,smeg ) since 1970 . then check attacks by all others ..go to utube and see the imans and mullahs spew their hate and bile ,then see if you can find a cleric of ANY other faith who comes even remotley close ..i know the muslims arent going to march down washington avenue ,smeg ...but they wont have too if they conquer all of europe by demographics in the next 30 or 40 years ..mulim states are without fail ,repressive ,corrupt , intolerant and backward ..a muslim world is really not a better world ,imo ..

 

This argument has come up a number of times, and I would just like to address it.

Currently, most Muslim cultures tend to have families with many many children. Interestingly, the same is also true of several other cultures that are never really mentioned... Even more interestingly, the same was true of Western cultures until comparatively recently. At the start of the 20th Century families of 12 or more children were common in this country. Why?

Partly because contraception was less used, but mostly because children did tend to die a lot. So you need to have more kids to make sure enough survive to support you when you're old. Nowadays we have
far better medical systems in the West, and infant mortality is very low, so if you only have 2 children there is a good chance that both will survive and outlive you. Having extra children becomes an extra expense. Plus the government helps support you in your old age.

Many Muslim countries (and others) do not yet have quite the same level of medical care - or have not yet had it in place long enough for it to sink into the culture. In 30 or 40 years British Muslims will likely be having fewer children for much the same reasons as the rest of the country have - the need for hordes of children has gone. Give it a bit longer (governments permitting) and the majority of the Muslim countries will follow suit.

It is all down to infant mortality.

Unless you believe that there is a serious long-term plan by all Muslims across Europe to democratically take over the entire Continent in 30-40 years by breeding like mad.

 

..i see your point ricky ,infant mortality is a part of it but between the pill , the womens movement .ie career paths and yuppie lifesyles us sophisticated white folks ,here and in europe are not makeing babies,,cultural change can be very slow ..latino catholic familys still make large broods 3 generations later ...muslim culture if anything is even more intractable..and please make no mistake about the korans edicts ..the world must and will be made muslim ..by forrce or by other means ... and lies and deception were favorite gambits of the prophets and are certainly approved for use on kufirs ..i know that all the muslims in the uk and europe are not in a giant conspirecy to wipe the pigs and apes from the world ,there must be some backslider secular muslims somwhere arround .though ive never met one ,have you? any muslim who is faithful and serious is duty bound to follow the words of mohamed ..please google robert spencers jihad watch ..he is villafied by the pc left and cair but if you can find any holes in his logic or arguments please enlighten me ..i have changed some long held beliiefs because of of sound arguments made in this very forum ..roel ,smeg, tiso please feel free to tear spencer limb from limb and exspose him for the foaming at the mouth raciest he is...sic em!!

 

Yes, loads. Walk around the streets of my town and you will meet plenty.

 

Have you ever actually met any of these mad-muslims, or have you just seen them on the telly?

The problem is not that there are no moderate muslims, the problem is that the media does not present their viewpoints, as it does not make a good story... :roll:

 

i guess you got me there smeg , ive never met an ak carrieing ,car bombing ,head removeing kinda muslim . i suppose its all those right wing islamiphobe media people that have filled my head with nonsense ..damn those reporters and their famous and well documented tendency to put a reactionary, way right of center slant on all the news ..cbs ,nbc ,the ny times the la times ,the bbc ...their all so gung ho on the war on terror and so enthralled with supporting gw bush ,cheney and rumsfield ...everywhere when thousands of freedom loveing muslims are marching in the streets with their giant "we hate osama " and "end terror bombings " and "muslims for free speech and religious tolerance " banners ..do we hear about it ? nooooo ..the media people cover it up ...
after 911 , in the us and uk ,tens of thousands of young muslims flocked to the military recruiters to show their loyalty for the countrys where they were born ..just like japanese ,german and italian boys did after pearl harbour ..yet the right wing media goes to great lengths to burie or ignore these stories so that they can support their own pro bush war for oil and corporate profit agenda ...god how i despise the brown shirt press corps with their aryan jack booted anti muslim propaganda ..the bbc ,canadian and european media elite and their beer hall thug reporters are so pro israel and slaveish to their all powerful BUSH /BLAIR idols that they ACTUALLY smashed shop windows and burned cars and mosques in muslim districts and then beat senseless innocent moderate muslims to make sure they kept their mouths shut .. ive heard the whole paris riots thing was actually started by the muslim hateing storm troopers of the french press ( while the police looked the other way) ..its like the reichstag fire all over again ..in germany cattle cars are being readied to ship all the moderate democracy loveing muslims to special work camps in poland and east prussia where they can be kept quiet ...ah , indefinately ...the staff of these camps is said to be made up almost entirely of voluteers from the german press corps ,all of them blued eyed ,blonde and at least six foot tall , with good teeth ...if only there were still a few liberal p.c. minded reporters somewhere ... anywhere ?..mabey then we could get some balance and fairness in the news ..

 

:roll:

At times your ironic ranting is not very helpful...

Firstly - do you know any Muslims at all?

Secondly - actually there have been plenty of 'Moderate Muslims for Peace' marches/rallies/etc, including a few protesting about the extremist's reaction to the Danish cartoons - and no, they were not widely reported in the Media. Why? Because it isn't very exciting news.

An overview - yes, there are fanatical & very dangerous Muslims out there who do want to bring about all sorts of nasty things. They do seem to be a minority. Yes, minorities can achieve such things, Nazi Germany being the classic example, but there are fewer similarities than your rant suggests.

 

sry about rant ricky, i did go overboard but it seems silly to implie that western media have been ignoreing rallies and marches by peacful muslims ..media people if anything are overwhelmingly a p.c. multicultural embraceing crowd ..its hard to imagine they intentionally under reported the strong muslim turnout for peace and tolerance ...when and where did these rallies and demonstrations take place ..is 23 people considered a march ? any video footage i could see? .. i would really like to see a pro democracy movement even if its just muslims in the usa ,uk or europe ..moderate muslims really need to make them selves heard for their own future welfare ( in a post big boom world) ..here in the us only about 40% of muslims polled belive the 911 attacks were carried out by arabs , 26 % think suicide bombings are ok if done to defend islam ..i personally have never met a muslim that did not call himself a devout and commited muslim ..even westernized ones sipping whiskey in a bar ..did you guys find any fault with spencers arguments on the koran or jihad ..ive seen lots of name calling but no actual dispute of his knowlege ....and im serious about the mod muslim rallies , where ,when ,how many people ...i would be heartened to see some evidence of anti terrorist muslims ...i would hope there are some at least in the west...

 

i did find a muslim sponsered anti terror rallie held in phoniex az , very sad ..of about 50k muslims in the area it seems about 60 muslims showed up ..another 100 or so non muslims were there
there was a huge ( 2000 or more people) anti terror demonstation in bahrain but it turns out it was an anti mosque bombing demonstration ..no complaints about killing jews or other kafirs ..
another demonstration in europe had some muslims ..mabey 100 or so but they seemed to be carrieing stop the war signs ..as opposed to stopping war on infidals
so far im seeing what i thought i would see ...an alarming lack of sympathy amongst actual muslims for anything which approaches a condemnation of muslim terror on jews or other nonbelivers ..
i will continue to search and if you have anytrhing to show me im all ears ...thanks ..also ,im hopeing to hear your critique of mr spencers site ,if you have one...

 

There are thousands of Muslims serving in the US armed forces, many of them are in Iraq putting their lives on the line to protect their country and serving all Americans... Including you Woody, and even including Mr Spencer... And on top of that they're putting up with the vicious attempts by their own country's media to discriminate against and demonise them... This is, of course, not even mentioning the hudreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afghani soldiers who are fighting the good fight against Terrorism, on the side of the US and the coalition...

Would these be the elusive "moderate Muslims" you are searching for woody? I wonder what the omnipresent Mr Spencer thinks of them... An inside job perhaps? Working to bring down the US military from the inside?

No doubt the answer is somewhere in his vast library of academic musings on philosphy and such, probably right next to the brandy cabinet... Oh how truly in touch he is with Islam

 

Read my comment carefully. Firstly, they are not ignored, just not widely reported. There is a difference. Secondly, whatever their [acknowledged or supposed] political leanings, news media are businesses first & foremost. Which makes better news:

1) Big Muslim rally against the Western World, flags burnt, hateful chanting, rioting, clashes with police, evil evil!

2) Big Muslim rally peacefully saying "let's be nice".

They are quite hard to find reports on - guess why? Partly because so few 'column inches' are wasted on them (see above) and partly because any search for 'Muslim protest' brings up the more 'juicy' type.

The main one I remember was a very large demonstration in London (went through Trafalgar Square) shortly after the Danish cartoon riots. The report was on the BBC website - good luck searching

The key word there being 'polled'. Polls are never particularly representative of anything beyond the sample of people you chose to ask and the way you worded the questions and interpreted the answers.

As an example, I remember a topic here where somebody brought up the poll statistic that a majority of Muslims valued their faith above their country. As the country in question was America, it was interpreted as being a lack of patriotism (or worse a hatred of America) among American Muslims. Balls. All it shows is that God is more important than worldly concerns to them. I am quite patriotic about the UK, but I would still answer 'God first, country second' in a poll.

And I have never met a Jew - even heavily secular ones munching a ham sandwich - who don't call themselves Jews. 'Muslim' is often used (in my experience) as a culteral label. It establishes what your background is. Much as many Irish people would call themselves Catholic, but couldn't recite a Hail Mary or wouldn't know what to do with a Communion wafer.

It also doesn't help that a Muslim who has backslidden is not held in very high esteem by the remainder of the Muslim community...

I couldn't agree more. Some of them are trying, but most seem to just be hoping that putting their heads down and being normal will eventually do the job.